Support NeoGAF

[Lord of Castamere]

This again. We had this thread months ago. Once again people are going off on a bit of a hysterical fit with out bothering to actually find out the details of the program

Good. I thought I was going crazy for a second. I swear some of the replies are almost the exact same as in the other thread too. I was struggling to find it, but I failed.

 

[cryptosporidium]

the idea behind this sounds good to me, but i guess its no gud cuz murica?

 

[Imm0rt4l]

the idea behind this sounds good to me, but i guess its no gud cuz murica?

Wtf does this even mean

 

[Somnid]

If I were to make a prediction, I think this will go better than people think. Pushing people into responsibility can be very helpful. Getting a simple job is not a monumental task, the drop outs will have to do it anyway, but I think getting people to plot that trajectory will produce better long term results. The things is a high school diploma doesn't get you anything, your job qualifications are marginally better than that of someone without one. It seems like they also want this to increase accountability for faculty pushing students past high school rather than just to the diploma itself. It's an interesting experiment, I hope it works.

 

[Dyle]

This again. We had this thread months ago. Once again people are going off on a bit of a hysterical fit with out bothering to actually find out the details of the program

First, a college acceptance letter is not the only way to get the diploma. You can have a job already or an offer on the table, a trade apprenticeship, join the military, and the language gives a lot of leeway as to what qualifies as "having a plan for what comes next".

Second the state has made it very easy to apply to and be accepted to a community college. Even if you don't go, it's very simple to get an acceptance letter.

Third and most importantly,this isn't schools just throwing kids out on their ass with a "good luck, you are an adult now!" Which is arguably what our system now is like. Instead, students will spend an entire year learning about what options they have for the future and working towards them with help from teachers and administration. As stated in the article, it's also on schools to make sure every single student has an option for their future by the time graduation comes around. That is a good thing. I do expect hiccups and issues as it begins, but the benefits are huge in setting a new expectation for what high school should provide kids. Changing from "good luck child, figure it out!" To "by the time you walk out these doors, you will feel secure in knowing what the next step in your journey is."

I agree with you, but only for good schools. CPS has a ton of absolute garbage schools that lack funding and are constantly hemorrhaging teachers and this policy will only hurt students at those underperforming schools even more. Schools in the poor minority neighborhoods will not have the funds to properly roll this out and give students the opportunities that they deserve. Given Illinois' budget crisis many state universities, particularly those that most cater to under-served groups, such as Chicago State/ Northeastern Illinois are on the verge of closing with severe layoffs. It is foolish to believe that this situation will significantly improve and serve more students, even by 2020.

I agree that this should be a policy in many school districts and is a great path forward that can help students make the most of their education, but given the state of CPS and the state of Illinois right now, it's a disastrous decision that will cause thousands of already vulnerable students to be denied the most basic, but essential mark of value in the working world.

 

[Cyframe]

This again. We had this thread months ago. Once again people are going off on a bit of a hysterical fit with out bothering to actually find out the details of the program

First, a college acceptance letter is not the only way to get the diploma. You can have a job already or an offer on the table, a trade apprenticeship, join the military, and the language gives a lot of leeway as to what qualifies as "having a plan for what comes next".

Second the state has made it very easy to apply to and be accepted to a community college. Even if you don't go, it's very simple to get an acceptance letter.

Third and most importantly,this isn't schools just throwing kids out on their ass with a "good luck, you are an adult now!" Which is arguably what our system now is like. Instead, students will spend an entire year learning about what options they have for the future and working towards them with help from teachers and administration. As stated in the article, it's also on schools to make sure every single student has an option for their future by the time graduation comes around. That is a good thing. I do expect hiccups and issues as it begins, but the benefits are huge in setting a new expectation for what high school should provide kids. Changing from "good luck child, figure it out!" To "by the time you walk out these doors, you will feel secure in knowing what the next step in your journey is."

Explain why there needs to be a forced requirement? Why can't supports be offered without an *? And the article mentions:

"If students are already automatically admitted to the City College system, then creating this rule seems to be not only redundant but also aimed at targeting a specific portion of the population."

What if someone with an ASD(Autism diagnosis) can't work and doesn't have a disability waiver because it's not a diagnosis covered by medicare and medicaid in most states. A hiccup in a case like that is unacceptable. And more cases like this are going to target the most marginalized. And saying to a teen for whatever why they may not want a job or to go to school, you can't have your diploma is unacceptable.

Offer the supports without this. And like the above person mentioned, many school districts can't afford this. Where the money and the staff going to come from?

 

[Nydius]

I guess I'm just sitting here surprised this isn't already the case since my school system had this back in the early 1990s. Before any of us could graduate, we had to submit proof that we either:

- Had a conditional offer of employment;
- Had been accepted to a 2- or 4- year college/university; or
- Had gone through early enlistment for the U.S. Armed Forces.

We had a big bulletin board at the front of the school with "SENIORS: [YEAR]" and as people submitted their information their name and information. So, for example, someone who decided to go through early enlistment would have: "NAME, UNITED STATES AIR FORCE" or whatever put up on the board for the entire school to see.

Seniors who didn't submit their paperwork weren't allowed to march with the class or get their diploma until they did.

 

[Makai]

If I were to make a prediction, I think this will go better than people think. Pushing people into responsibility can be very helpful. Getting a simple job is not a monumental task, the drop outs will have to do it anyway, but I think getting people to plot that trajectory will produce better long term results. The things is a high school diploma doesn't get you anything, your job qualifications are marginally better than that of someone without one. It seems like they also want this to increase accountability for faculty pushing students past high school rather than just to the diploma itself. It's an interesting experiment, I hope it works.

My school did something similar where I had to job shadow someone. Made me realize I didn't want to do chemistry.

 

[Hellwarden]

Wow this is legal?

I mean, I know students in the US have limited rights in contrast to the average citizen, but this seems like a stretch of what the state can ask of the average student.

 

[Earthbound64]

This again. We had this thread months ago.

Hey, I tried. I even quoted one of your posts from the other thread in here.

 

[Jon Carter]

Community College full-time still costs thousands of dollars. They are promising acceptance, not tuition.

Does it? I paid thousands of dollars because I was an international student, but for California residents, my community college was $25 per unit and full time is 12 units. That's four classes. Books can be expensive, but they don't cost thousands of dollars.

 

[TAJ]

I wonder how big his kickbacks from military recruiters will be.

 

[Slayven]

This again. We had this thread months ago. Once again people are going off on a bit of a hysterical fit with out bothering to actually find out the details of the program

First, a college acceptance letter is not the only way to get the diploma. You can have a job already or an offer on the table, a trade apprenticeship, join the military, and the language gives a lot of leeway as to what qualifies as "having a plan for what comes next".

Second the state has made it very easy to apply to and be accepted to a community college. Even if you don't go, it's very simple to get an acceptance letter.

Third and most importantly,this isn't schools just throwing kids out on their ass with a "good luck, you are an adult now!" Which is arguably what our system now is like. Instead, students will spend an entire year learning about what options they have for the future and working towards them with help from teachers and administration. As stated in the article, it's also on schools to make sure every single student has an option for their future by the time graduation comes around. That is a good thing. I do expect hiccups and issues as it begins, but the benefits are huge in setting a new expectation for what high school should provide kids. Changing from "good luck child, figure it out!" To "by the time you walk out these doors, you will feel secure in knowing what the next step in your journey is."

This is fine, if it was in a vacuum, but the Chicago's school system is toxic cesspool with problems from top to bottom

 

[ColdPizza]

Wow this is legal?

I mean, I know students in the US have limited rights in contrast to the average citizen, but this seems like a stretch of what the state can ask of the average student.

What do they need a diploma for if they have no plan? Just in case? A diploma isn't the end. It's the beginning.

 

[cryptosporidium]

Wtf does this even mean

that murica will take something that could be good and do it horribly wrong?

 

[opticalmace]

Seems like there are a lot of ways this could screw over some people.

 

[kaname-san]

Why do people keep voting for this guy?

 

[Vicetrailia]

I heard this was a requirement for charter schools. Devos?

 

[psyfi]

oh fuck off

 

[Ogodei]

Not the worst of plans if the above is true.

Though it just shifts the problem of a bunch of people enrolling and then dropping out of the Community College (people who might want to go HS->work but don't have a job right off the bat).

I wonder if a part-time job qualifies as well? If this became a real issue, non-profits could just start up and guarantee every high school graduate a job for the summer just to make sure they get their diploma.

 

[siddx]

I agree with you, but only for good schools. CPS has a ton of absolute garbage schools that lack funding and are constantly hemorrhaging teachers and this policy will only hurt students at those underperforming schools even more. Schools in the poor minority neighborhoods will not have the funds to properly roll this out and give students the opportunities that they deserve. Given Illinois' budget crisis many state universities, particularly those that most cater to under-served groups, such as Chicago State/ Northeastern Illinois are on the verge of closing with severe layoffs. It is foolish to believe that this situation will significantly improve and serve more students, even by 2020.

I agree that this should be a policy in many school districts and is a great path forward that can help students make the most of their education, but given the state of CPS and the state of Illinois right now, it's a disastrous decision that will cause thousands of already vulnerable students to be denied the most basic, but essential mark of value in the working world.

Ideally, this program should require little or even no additional funds as it's a readjusting of priorities for both the senior students and staff. Meaning time and resources that would previously be spent on other things will instead be devoted to this year long program helping seniors prepare. Whether that holds true requires students, school systems, and parents to go all in on this. Which is where it could face issues. Everyone has to be willing to give it a fair shake and adjust how they see a senior year of school should proceed for it to work.
There are no doubt serious issues and complications that could arise when it comes to money, since the state seems to be run by incompetent corrupt fucknuts, but in my mind it's worth trying. It's worth making an effort to try and fix a failing system.

In regards to making all these things a requirement, I personally believe it is actually more focused on school systems as it will hold them accountable. It means school systems can't just "get em to the door", they have to help plan for after as well.

 

[Cyframe]

I remember reading a story about a few schools that added washing machines and attendance to that school bumped up significantly. Clean clothes are fundamental to education.

When I'm looking through this proposal, it doesn't address necessities. And kids shouldn't be forced to join the military to get things like that covered. Are kids automatically going to get food stamps? What about documentations like a social security card and birth certificate? Healthcare? Will that get addressed? Do people understand the home life these kids have? What about addressing the school to prison pipeline that unfairly targets Black and other minorities? Does this address suspensions for minor behavior problems? What about mental illness in the Black community, will the school system pay for mental health diagnosis?

I could just list things all night. This would be great as an option, not as a forced requirement that more than likely is going to be met with lawsuits. If you go to school K-12 and pass your classes you earned your diploma. Period.

 

[Ryaaan14]

I'm not a smart man but even I know this will eviscerate the black community

I've said it before about Chicago and I'll say it again, the only way to save Chicago is to help black kids graduate

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Folks, this ain't a bug. This shit is working exactly as intended.

Destroying the Black family and gutting the Black community has been an objective of government in this nation for as long as it's existed.

Doubly so since the Civil rights movement in the 60's.

Your democrat "allies", folks.

 

[The Lamp]

Looking at the rules it doesnt appear that you actually have to go. Just apply and receive an acceptance letter.

And the OP is also referring to any job including minimum wage right?

 

[Kthulhu]

I can't believe a Democrat would propose something like this. This seems like a policy straight out of the worst minds of the GOP.

Is this guy known for hating the poor and minorities?

 

[FyreWulff]

So basically de facto forced conscription because soooo many kids that are fucked over by society already are going to be able to get offers

 

[Mammoth Jones]

I can't believe a Democrat would propose something like this. This seems like a policy straight out of the worst minds of the GOP.

Is this guy known for hating the poor and minorities?

I can believe it. Democrat leadership only give lip service to Black issues. When it comes to tangible systemic changes they don't give a shit. They'll throw a few crumbs or provide trickle down social justice.

 

[Alienfan]

The intentions seem good, ending a childs education so abruptly and doing nothing to set them up for their future is a terrible part of the education system. However this doesn't seem to be the way to go about it, unless community College became free / heavily subsidized or acceptance letters are free to get (are they?)

 

[Koomaster]

I believe I said this last thread but it bears repeating. If you are going to make this a requirement to graduate high school then college needs to be free. It's unfair to force students to take on debt just to get their HS diplomas.

 

[WillyFive]

That seems really unfair and outside of the sphere of influence a normal high schooler can reasonably control.

 

[Deepwater]

This again. We had this thread months ago. Once again people are going off on a bit of a hysterical fit with out bothering to actually find out the details of the program

First, a college acceptance letter is not the only way to get the diploma. You can have a job already or an offer on the table, a trade apprenticeship, join the military, and the language gives a lot of leeway as to what qualifies as "having a plan for what comes next".

Second the state has made it very easy to apply to and be accepted to a community college. Even if you don't go, it's very simple to get an acceptance letter.

Third and most importantly,this isn't schools just throwing kids out on their ass with a "good luck, you are an adult now!" Which is arguably what our system now is like. Instead, students will spend an entire year learning about what options they have for the future and working towards them with help from teachers and administration. As stated in the article, it's also on schools to make sure every single student has an option for their future by the time graduation comes around. That is a good thing. I do expect hiccups and issues as it begins, but the benefits are huge in setting a new expectation for what high school should provide kids. Changing from "good luck child, figure it out!" To "by the time you walk out these doors, you will feel secure in knowing what the next step in your journey is."

you have an odd amount of faith placed in chicago public schools.

then again, I'm not from chicago

 

[Xe4]

School: "You can't get a job, so we can't let you graduate."
Student: "Ok." *Drops out.*

Seriously, WTF did they think this was going to solve? You want to improve shit like that invest in training programs for high school kids, don't force them to find a job, so if they don't they're fucked...

 

[MarionCB]

I guess I'm just sitting here surprised this isn't already the case since my school system had this back in the early 1990s. Before any of us could graduate, we had to submit proof that we either:

- Had a conditional offer of employment;
- Had been accepted to a 2- or 4- year college/university; or
- Had gone through early enlistment for the U.S. Armed Forces.

We had a big bulletin board at the front of the school with "SENIORS: [YEAR]" and as people submitted their information their name and information. So, for example, someone who decided to go through early enlistment would have: "NAME, UNITED STATES AIR FORCE" or whatever put up on the board for the entire school to see.

Seniors who didn't submit their paperwork weren't allowed to march with the class or get their diploma until they did.

I'm amazed this is normal for you. I guess if you grow up like that, it is. Look, I'm not American but this creeps me out on a major level. You guys are completely institutionalised at this point.

 

[siddx]

you have an odd amount of faith placed in chicago public schools.

then again, I'm not from chicago

My faith isn't in the system in regards to the politicians and the district admin. But I do have faith in the teachers that will share the responsibility of getting this achieved. I say that as a teacher myself though. A program that would ensure my students, with my help, know exactly what comes next would be something I'd pursue passionately.

 

[Dyle]

Ideally, this program should require little or even no additional funds as it's a readjusting of priorities for both the senior students and staff. Meaning time and resources that would previously be spent on other things will instead be devoted to this year long program helping seniors prepare. Whether that holds true requires students, school systems, and parents to go all in on this. Which is where it could face issues. Everyone has to be willing to give it a fair shake and adjust how they see a senior year of school should proceed for it to work.
There are no doubt serious issues and complications that could arise when it comes to money, since the state seems to be run by incompetent corrupt fucknuts, but in my mind it's worth trying. It's worth making an effort to try and fix a failing system.

In regards to making all these things a requirement, I personally believe it is actually more focused on school systems as it will hold them accountable. It means school systems can't just "get em to the door", they have to help plan for after as well.

I agree it's worth trying, but there isn't a clear way of how this could be achieved when CPS is continually laying off teachers and the guidance counselors who would presumably lead this program are already overworked and struggling to effectively do their jobs and help their students. The plan is a pie in the sky fantasy as long as CPS continues to cut staff, the Teachers Union continues to respond with district wide strikes, and the state government continues to cut/not budget education funding.

Critics say Emanuel’s idea is an empty gesture that does nothing to address the fact that many teenagers are graduating in ­impoverished, violence-racked neighborhoods with few jobs, or that the most readily accessible community colleges are ill-prepared to meet the needs of first-generation students from low-income families. They also point out that the 381,000-student district laid off more than 1,000 teachers and staff members in 2016, and it is in such difficult financial straits that it struggled to keep its doors open for the final weeks of the school year.

“It sounds good on paper, but the problem is that when you’ve cut the number of counselors in schools, when you’ve cut the kind of services that kids need, who is going to do this work?” said Karen Lewis, president of the Chicago Teachers Union and Emanuel’s longtime political opponent. “If you’ve done the work to earn a diploma, then you should get a diploma. Because if you don’t, you are forcing kids into more poverty.”

Victor Ochoa, a counselor at Carl Schurz High School in northwest Chicago, where students are overwhelmingly Hispanic and poor, said he has a caseload of 400 students and a grab bag of other duties: recruiting eighth-graders to enroll, registering students for classes and summer school, monitoring attendance, administering standardized tests, and helping students deal with crises from homelessness to street violence. Many counselors also serve as special-education coordinators, he said.

 

[Cyframe]

I can believe it. Democrat leadership only give lip service to Black issues. When it comes to tangible systemic changes they don't give a shit. They'll throw a few crumbs or provide trickle down social justice.

This subject gets me heated because while I don't live in Chicago, my state's public schooling was awful, especially for kids like me who were Black. If something like this succeeds and more cities and even states adopt a policy like this, Black kids are going to suffer.

You cannot talk about education and not address structural issues. They have to be tackled simultaneously. And a college education is not even necessarily an equalizer if your application gets thrown in the trash because your name is too urban.

I don't have any patience that puts undo pressure on my community while they can offer this without forced requirements. What about racism in the classroom, how does something like this proposed deal with racist teachers and professors? Where can a Black kid go if racism is affecting their ability to focus in the classrooms from other kids and even authority figures?

EDIT:

Also, Rahm has been at odds with teacher unions and parent initiatives. He doesn't support them. This type of requirement is likely to cause another strike. People really should know who Rahm is.

 

[kess]

I can't believe a Democrat would propose something like this. This seems like a policy straight out of the worst minds of the GOP.

Is this guy known for hating the poor and minorities?

Corporatist friendly policies from a corporate friendly Democrat, that's all.

 

[Hoho for breakfast]

Oh nice, great way to try and herd poor people into the military. Clearly this will solve all the problems. What a piece of shit.

 

[Nydius]

I'm amazed this is normal for you. I guess if you grow up like that, it is. Look, I'm not American but this creeps me out on a major level. You guys are completely institutionalised at this point.

I don't disagree. I call it the Education-Industrial Complex. Looking back on it as a student it didn't seem like such a big deal. Looking at it now as an adult and a parent, it's absolutely ridiculous. The program is run almost entirely by the school administrators or guidance counselors rather than the teachers and it's clear the entire purpose is to push kids into college, with the military as the preferred second option. From both my experience as a student and having observed the process with my son, jobs and vocational training are rarely mentioned but they will go on and on and on about the various paths for college and university education.

I'd argue my son had it worse because he was required to take the U.S. Military's ASVAB aptitude testing in his junior year. Afterward he had recruiters constantly bugging him for a year and a half. At least the ASVAB was optional for me.

 

[Vermillion]

Good intentions poorly implemented.

You don't deny an important credential on these grounds.

Basically. I understand the motive, buuuutttt

 

[Brawly Likes to Brawl]

I remember reading about this when it was first announced. The idea is absurd and regressive. Why not just provide services and support without what amounts to blackmail?

Daria said it best:

"My goal is not to wake up at 40 with the bitter realization that I've wasted my life in a job I hate because I was forced to decide on a career in my teens."

Because the true purpose is to make things harder for a specific group of people.

 

[makingmusic476]

How does this dude keep getting elected?

 

[Mesousa]

Because the true purpose is to make things harder for a specific group of people.

This reads like conservative propaganda. Why would Rahm make it harder for the children of a population segment which votes for him? To keep them dependent on the state to the point where they will keep supporting big government policies(Sounds like Rush Limbaugh).

 

[The Maverick]

I live in Illinois, Chicago Public Schools are not a good place to test this "theory". Underfunded school, stressed teachers, at-home difficulties, lack of transportation for students, etc. This is just another pipeline for minority students, except now it's to get used by the military or for-profit education system. Or get in the minimum wage job trap. Or get culled from graduating.

Rahm remains a clueless bozo that has no idea what the people need in terms of help.

This reads like conservative propaganda. Why would Rahm make it harder for the children of a population segment which votes for him? To keep them dependent on the state to the point where they will keep supporting big government policies(Sounds like Rush Limbaugh).

You're trying to be funny, but that's not too far off. If this was being implemented with good intentions, it wouldn't be tied to graduating. He would be working together with parents and teacher initiatives. He's not. This will only force more students out of schools.

 

[patapuf]

Withholding a diploma is silly but kids without a job or other plan getting an extra year at school that's all about finding that could be a good thing if it's done well.

 

[D i Z]

It begins.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Because the true purpose is to make things harder for a specific group of people.

Yup. You have no federal right to an education in the US. The entire point of basic education was to create a capable workforce. But many corporations and rich folk really hate their tax dollars going to fund it even on the state level. This is why you have Betsy Devos pushing charter schools. You pay for your own shit.

Sorry but if what someone does after high school isnt justification to withhold their diploma. Don't want folks without jobs? Then maybe stop locking their dad's up on bullshit drug charges.

Iredell of racist motherfuckers doing everything sleepy underhanded tactic to prevent black people from getting theirs. This reminds me of literacy tests for voting. People swore that wasn't racist back then too....

Withholding a diploma is silly but kids without a job or other plan getting an extra year at school that's all about finding that could be a good thing if it's done well.

This isn't done well.

This reads like conservative propaganda. Why would Rahm make it harder for the children of a population segment which votes for him? To keep them dependent on the state to the point where they will keep supporting big government policies(Sounds like Rush Limbaugh).

Same reasons democrats have been indifferent to issues facing black people in America. Someone else's money matters more...

Hate when politicians piss in our face and folks swear up and down its rain.

 

[Mesousa]

I live in Illinois, Chicago Public Schools are not a good place to test this "theory". Underfunded school, stressed teachers, at-home difficulties, lack of transportation for students, etc. This is just another pipeline for minority students, except now it's to get used by the military or for-profit education system. Or get in the minimum wage job trap. Or get culled from graduating.

Rahm remains a clueless bozo that has no idea what the people need in terms of help.


You're trying to be funny, but that's not too far off. If this was being implemented with good intentions, it wouldn't be tied to graduating. He would be working together with parents and teacher initiatives. He's not. This will only force more students out of schools.

Or it will force kids, and parents, to begin thinking about the future before getting a degree and being thrown out into the real world without a plan.

People are mad, but Trump is already saying he wants to send Feds into Chicago. Rahm has to try something to make sure we don't get to that point.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Or it will force kids, and parents, to begin thinking about the future before getting a degree and being thrown out into the real world without a plan.

People are mad, but Trump is already saying he wants to send Feds into Chicago. Rahm has to try something to make sure we don't get to that point.

"It's for your own good black folk we know what's best for you..."

This is why I can't fuck with the Democrats. This is why I hold my nose in the voting booth. And before you go in no Republicans aren't better but "the other side is so much worse" isn't much consolation when people really trying to defend this racist bullshit.

What a person does after they graduate should have no impact on their graduation. Offer them job placement if you want to help. Offer financial planning services. Teach fiscal management. Teach entrepreneurship.

But don't refuse someone to graduate when they have the grades because you don't like their post graduation plan. It's honestly not the schools business the day after graduation.

There are 1000 better ways to help.