While Microsoft is hoping of making money in the future by enticing you now, Nintendo is creating wealth now. Maybe Microsoft's gamble will pay off, I do own an Xbox, but I know I don't have consumer loyalty, I go to whoever gives me what I want. I love Nintendo games, so Revolution is pretty much a sure bet, can't say the same for Xenon.
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"Customers do not want online games" - Iwata
- Thread starter Suerte
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Hellraizah
Member
Count me in, too.ManaByte said:
Gorgie said:
Now you are mixing up online gaming with what you like and you missed my point entirely. I was saying that from an online stance, MS has shown that they offer the option and that future consumers will be well aware of this. Nintendo on the contrary hasn't and they will probably be hoping that their loyal consumers just jump on the online bandwagon if or when that time comes. So MS might be giviing away free things as you say but they will most likely reap some of that back with the Xenon.
Man this is getting old.
This is how I see it. No one has proved that online actually affects sales in a positive way. Nintendo doesn't see it as a cause to pursue right now, especially when recurring fees are factored in. I don't know whether they are right or wrong, but people should just give it break. If Nintendo has screwed this up, it's on them. If they have actually read the future right, they will save themselves a lot of growing pains from pushing an infant concept--they might lose a few hardcore gamers in the process, but I doubt they would feel sad. There's no need to take Nintendo's resistance and philosophy so seriously outside of making a choice to buy their products.
Sometimes I think people feel like Nintendo is insulting the industry and gamers for holding a different opinion and goal in mind.
This is how I see it. No one has proved that online actually affects sales in a positive way. Nintendo doesn't see it as a cause to pursue right now, especially when recurring fees are factored in. I don't know whether they are right or wrong, but people should just give it break. If Nintendo has screwed this up, it's on them. If they have actually read the future right, they will save themselves a lot of growing pains from pushing an infant concept--they might lose a few hardcore gamers in the process, but I doubt they would feel sad. There's no need to take Nintendo's resistance and philosophy so seriously outside of making a choice to buy their products.
Sometimes I think people feel like Nintendo is insulting the industry and gamers for holding a different opinion and goal in mind.
ManaByte
Gold Member
ge-man said:
Sony is still leading the industry, and not matter how many sales charts you try to spin, Microsoft is #2 in the US. You have the two leading companies both supporting online, then you have Iwata at Nintendo saying everyone is an idiot for playing online games? Yes, they are insulting the industry and gamers.
It reminds me of the classic, and true, Yamauchi quote: "We have two enemies, third-parties and consumers."
Suerte said:
To sort of expand on what Wario said, I, personally, don't think online gaming is fad, but I do think that those smitten with it this generation, a lot on paper, a fraction of the gaming populace in the real world, have somehow convinced themselves that it's as popular an option right now as, say, having buddies over to play it side-by-side. Fad? No. Something that the average, often [mis]informed consumer is going to make a purchase by? Hell no. He'd probably have some kind of stroke at the mere thought of plugging something into his router.
And, as far as Nintendo's next console having 3rd-party online gaming goes, NCL doesn't need any experience. Most likely, if it happens, their system will be very similar to Sony's, where they're very much hands off with the companies. EA, Sega, Activision, whoever, they're not going to say "Oh, well, Nintendo, you're a nice group of guys at all, but you have no experience making online games, so of course, that's going to stop us from putting online games on your system." That makes no sense. It's like PC game companies telling Microsoft back in the early 90s, "Well, shit, if you don't start making stuff more exciting than Flight Simulator," we're going to that lunch buffet with Jobs."
And it's not as if Nintendo has zero experience sending their 1st-party game data through a Cat 5. If some sourceforge.net guys can manage to shift that software online, Nintendo's more than capable of doing it themselves, if and when they choose to do so. It's also not as if Nintendo's outright ignoring the concept. The DS doesn't have 802.11 built into it just for kicks.
ManaByte said:
Well, even if that's the case (I don't think Iwata is actually saying that), people have options. That's the bottom line of my post. If you don't like it, tell Nintendo to fuck off and buy something else. I don't know what the debate has keep popping up when Iwata says the same thing he has said for the last couple of years.
ManaByte
Gold Member
xsarien said:
If that is how Nintendo is going to do their online plan, then forget it.
PS2 online is virtually unplayable due to the Pro Action Replay and GameShark online hacks that are out there.
Want to play Socom II? Sorry, but that guy you are shooting is invincible.
Want to race in NFS: Underground? Sorry, but that car can complete any track in 1 second.
Want to play some MVP 2004? Sorry, there are infinite home run codes and never strike out codes.
Sony made DNAS to try to stop the cheaters. That was hacked within minutes of it coming out.
Xbox Live, being a closed service, does not have those problems. In fact the only way to really cheat on Live is to host a game and lag everyone out by doing a bunch of downloads on your PC while you're playing. But the average dumbshit who uses a GameShark is too retarded to figure that out, so it rarely happens.
Now that never happened.
I don't have too much of an issue with Nintendo not jumping onto the online bandwagon because there are some very valid reasons for them to be still going slow.
What I'm concrened about is that this is symptomatic of Nintendo's view of gaming as a whole which is far more concerning then the online issue. Basically Nintendo is locked into a Japan-centric view of the world which is going to put them at a severe disadvantage against Sony and Microsoft who are global in approach.
And attributing the slowdown in game sales to games getting too complicated is just Iwata twisting facts to fit his world view of "simpler is better" which he has never shaken off (despite Pikmin and Luigi's Mansion type games not becoming million sellers), game sales are slowing down because this generation has started the process of winding down.
There's always a calm, well-stated viewpoint like this that gets drowned out by people screaming about how:MattCoz said:
--it costs "50 BILLION DOLLARS!!1" to make online games
--it is impossible to make a game with good single player and good multiplayer.
When you think about it, both of those talking points are just a bit silly. I don't think it would be inordinately expensive to do some P2P games, and most of the titles that people want online play in already have very refined multiplayer modes.
ManaByte said:
But how much damage? You are nothing but a small minority. The reason I own an Xbox is that it usually sports the best version of multi-platform games. This advantage will be gone next gen. Furthermore, while Revolution is guaranteed new Nintendo games (hopefully full of innovation), Xenon guarantees nothing except Rareware games, Team Ninja, and maybe Bungie. ( Bungie was bought out once, they can always do it again.) The xbox is lacking in the most important area, exclusive games. I see the majority of the games released to the Xbox now, because of its power, will migrate to the Revolution and PS3 now that Xenon will be weakest, the Dreamcast of next gen if you will.
ManaByte said:
But it being a closed service means that unlike the PS2 (and, for the sake of argument, Nintendo) version(s) of the game, you can't have cross-platform gaming (see also: EA as of, like, Holiday 2003), game companies have an extra hurdle to jump when they want to do things with their online games, and, as the well documented Microsoft/EA feud taught us, it can push larger developers away unless a lot of exceptions are made. Sony's model is, to be blunt, much friendlier to game makers, as long as they can put themselves online.
Yeah, Gameshark's a problem, but I'd like to think that SCEA still has final approval over what's ultimately released, and advertised as software for the PS2. (And if that's not true, it should be, at least for the sake of consistency). Likewise, if there's one company even more uptight about what software gets released for their systems than Sony, it's Nintendo. I somehow doubt they'd let something on the market that could ruin a gaming experience. I wouldn't put it past them at all to fight like hell to have something like that pulled if it was interfering with the functionality of something they had going.
Kobun Heat
Member
But note that in this same article, Iwata talks about forging stronger partnerships with American publishers.Azih said:
And remember that Donkey Kong was originally created for the American market. Of course, the reason it succeeded was because it was a product of innovative Japanese design sense. Nintendo's always thought on a global scale - but as a company, they can't help but be Japanese.
They are pretty clearly trying to rectify that, however, by securing better relationships with Western developers.
ManaByte
Gold Member
xsarien said:
EA wanted full control over the sports servers so they could shut down the server after a year and force people to buy the next version of the game, like they can do on the PS2. MS made the LSP, and EA can now do that. Expect Madden 2005 to no longer work on Live come next August.
xsarien said:
SCEA has no control over GameSharks and Pro Action Replay. They are completely unlicensed products and SCEA never even sees them before they hit the market.
Nintendo tried to stop the Game Genie from being on the market and actually sued Galoob over releasing it. Too bad they lost. There have been Game Genies, Pro Action Replays, and GameSharks for Nintendo systems ever since.
If Nintendo does their online set up like Sony's, there WILL be uncontrollable hacking and cheating in the games.
Ninja Scooter
Member
ManaByte said:
c'mon dude. "Virtually unplayable"? Exaggerate much? In my (close to) 1 year of playing ps2 online, i have yet to run into more than 1 or 2 cheaters. Its pretty easy to avoid. If you're playing Madden, and you're opponents stats say he is 50-0 and averages 85 points a game, odds are he's a cheater so don't play him. And if you do happen to run into a game with a cheater, just log out and get another game. Sure there are cheaters, but there are also more than enough people who just want to play. Saying its "virtually unplayable" is just wrong.
Kobun Heat
Member
That pretty much sums it all up.Azih said:
The only online functionality that would be really "Nintendo" in nature would be something like XBL. But right now, an XBL styled service would be prohibitively expensive. I think that's pretty much where it stops until online becomes cheaper and more lucrative.
Wellington
BAAAALLLINNN'
ManaByte said:
I get a good chuckle out of the people that think P2P connectivity would cost so much, and then also wanted Warp Pipe to make it big. Warp Pipe at it's biggest was worked on by a team of 6 people, and that includes the two people doing the GUI's for each computer platform, a producer, and a project manager. You get a group of six dudes to do this for every potentially online (in-house) nintendo game and they will not hit the project for much money and over time will work a lot more efficiently and quickly.
No real huge investment, heck if hacked utilities like Warp Pipe and XBConnect have worked with minimal costs of developing the apps only, it's clear that something set up by a company that actually made the hardware has great potential.
ManaByte said:
As much as I cringe at the thought, Nintendo didn't have the vague language of the DMCA on their side back then.
But then, I'm fairly conservative when it comes to this aspect of gaming, so I wouldn't exactly sing a requiem for these things if they got pulled under that law's statutes. I've never owned a Game Genie or similar hardware. Half the fun of a game is beating it without hacking the damned software.
Kobun Heat said:
They may be trying to fix the problem but it's still a weakness that I think will hurt them far more then the online thing will. Frankly Nintendo's insistence that the gaming world is all doom and gloom for the past few years when North Americans and Europeans were buying games like crazy was out of step. And this led to their mistakes with the Gamecube because they were trying to fix the dwindling Japenese market and in doing so not only did they fail to take advantage of the hot Western markets (and fail to fix the Japanese one anyway) they lost ground to Sony and Microsoft in the process who were busy taking advantage of the enthusiastic Western audience.
I think they fail to realize this and I don't see their decision making processes changing which does not bode well for the future. Forging greater links with Western pubs is all fine, but in the end Western pubs will publish their games on the console that provides them with an audience that will *buy* their games. And with Nintendo's overall outlook that 'simpler is better' Nintendo is incapable of leading from the front in creating the mass of Nintendo console owners that the publishers will be able to cater to and profit from.
norinrad21
Banned
Subitai said:
You'd be doing the same too if you run a huge corp.
How long have we been waiting for flying cars?
I don't think those exist for most online PC games that use CD keys. The best they ever do is crack the server-side program that requests key information, so you have to play on servers with hacked EXEs. If it can't be easily done in the PC world, I wouldn't expect it to happen with consoles.ManaByte said:
Though obviously you can take it just one step further and ban by console rather than by CD key. Each system has a unique, hardcoded serial that it would transmit at login, and you just ban that serial from a particular game....or from all games if abuse continues. This obviously requires some foresight when designing and manufacturing a system, but I think all 3 consoles have digital serials right now anyway.
Littleberu
Banned
ManaByte said:
Isn't that your problem if you made a bad investment? I mean, I play my Gamecube everyday, and I don't have any problems with it. Why don't you sell your GC to buy more Xbox game, if you like online games more than offline games? I just don't understand here. Anyway, it's not like Microsoft is releasing a game every month either.
ManaByte
Gold Member
xsarien said:
While making a CD-Key will require a small server database (which will cost money Nintendo somehow just doesn't have), hard coding the key to the software would require an even more elaborate registration database sort of like a mini-Xbox Live. Somehow Nintendo is just so low on money they simply can't afford to do that.
Kobun Heat
Member
For now.Azih said:
The Gamecube isn't going to be the lead platform of this gen. But next generation, everybody starts at zero. And as you're trying to line up launch titles, you do it through solid relationships with the developers and publishers.
Lead platforms aren't created out of thin air, and Nintendo's laying the groundwork for next generation with its partnerships now. Whether all that will work out in their favor is anyone's guess at this point - but if you agree that one of Nintendo's main problems early on with the GCN was lack of major franchise titles and solid, deep games, then you've got to believe that teamups with outside developers are a big step towards solving that problem at Revolution's launch.
ManaByte
Gold Member
Littleberu said:
Unlike some people here, I don't have such blind loyalty to a company that I'll flat out boycott another console. I can't play Mario or Zelda on my PS2 or Xbox, so I own a GameCube.
I really wish they didn't exist, but they do for most major games that use CD-Keys.
That would require servers and maintenance that Nintendo apparently doesn't have the money to maintain.
ManaByte
Gold Member
Kobun Heat said:
Circa 2000:
Lead platforms aren't created out of thin air, and Nintendo's laying the groundwork for next generation with its partnerships now. Whether all that will work out in their favor is anyone's guess at this point - but if you agree that one of Nintendo's main problems early on with the N64 was lack of major franchise titles and solid, deep games, then you've got to believe that teamups with outside developers are a big step towards solving that problem at Dolphin's launch.
Littleberu
Banned
ManaByte said:
What are you talking about? Why don't you just RENT one when a big game is released? I don't have an Xbox, but I'll probably rent one when Halo 2 is released. Why spend money on a system I won't use often anyway!?!
Doom_Bringer
Banned
IWATA IS A FOOL! AND HE SHOULD PLAY BATTLEFIELD 1942
Littleberu
Banned
ManaByte said:
But you don't seem to want to play Zelda or Mario very often anyway. That's what you're saying anyway.
Well, everything is going to require a server and a bit of maintenance whether it is P2P or otherwise. I understand that what you're saying here is just parody.....but yeah, some people do take themselves seriously and won't be satisfied until you can prove to them that it won't cost a nickel to produce some online titles. =\ I think the truth of the matter is that Nintendo could test the waters fairly cheaply, but just haven't had the desire to do so.ManaByte said:
I believe online is one of the keys that Nintendo needs if they are serious about chasing down a "mature" userbase. As many others have pointed out, a lot of people are now old enough to be in living situations where they cannot play "in real life" with dorm mates or other kids from the neighborhood. Trying to sell 4-player games to these people is pretty useless. But if they have another way to enjoy multiplayer-focused titles, then you've opened up that market sufficiently.
SapientWolf
Trucker Sexologist
Anyone who doesn't want an online version of Advance Wars or Soul Calibur II is not a gamer. I don't know if Nintendo can continue to ignore the wants of the hardcore crowd and still remain competitive, because the Nintendo generation is growing up and the Pokemon/Mario craze has died down.
I do think Nintendo was wise not to make a halfway attempt at online gaming like Sony did. Online gaming won't be financially viable until broadband is more widespread. The problem is that Microsoft will already have a great online service in place and Nintendo will have to play catch-up when online gaming goes mainstream. Nintendo had better become more flexible in the future, or they will find themselves making kid's toys and not game systems.
I do think Nintendo was wise not to make a halfway attempt at online gaming like Sony did. Online gaming won't be financially viable until broadband is more widespread. The problem is that Microsoft will already have a great online service in place and Nintendo will have to play catch-up when online gaming goes mainstream. Nintendo had better become more flexible in the future, or they will find themselves making kid's toys and not game systems.
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