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[March Climber]

I don't think BR and Extraction games, quality-wise, are good enough to compare to when MMOs peaked.

I've been seeing the comparisons of the BR/Extraction genre to the MMO boom of the 2000s here lately due to some BR/Extraction games closing down or being cancelled this decade. I understand that people keep wanting to make this comparison, but if you take a look back, quite a few of the MMO releases that weren't WoW/EQ, were pretty cool and unique with what they offered. I could name great things about the following games, which were released during the time where MMOs were at their peak (when everyone wanted to make one):

• LoTRo
• Wildstar
• Warhammer Online
• Star Wars TOR
• Dungeon Runners
• Tabula Rasa
• Auto Assault
• Vindictus
• CN FusionFall
• Eve Online
• Tera Online
• Asheron's Call
• Guild Wars
• Guild Wars 2
• Nevewinter
• Path of Exile
• Ragnarok Online
• EQ 2
• Phantasy Star Online
• Secret World
• MapleStory
• Dungeon Fighter Online
• FFXI
• Firefall
• Free Realms
• City of Heroes
• DCUO
• Shin Megami Tensei Online
• Matrix Online
• Planetside

These are what I could think of at the moment but there are a few more great ones I'm probably missing. Most of these MMOs provided vastly different experiences from each other and really expanded the genre to be more than just 'Everquest/WoW clone #125".

I can't name this many good and varied BR/Extraction games, especially not with the BR genre itself, which essentially all have the same rulesets (kill each other until you're the last person in a shrinking circle). What do you think, GAF?

 

[Guilty_AI]

How to trigger Men_in_Boxes :

 

[March Climber]

How to trigger Men_in_Boxes :

I'm fine with a back and forth if he's interested. Me and him have done it before.

Honestly I started this thread because of that recent 'Halo BR cancelled' thread that was closed. I keep seeing the same sentiment over and over again on GAF in each BR cancellation or shutdown, which essentially is 'This is just like how MMOs were' which I just can't seem to agree with from a quality standpoint. On average I think MMOs during their boom were way better and more unique than what BRs and Extraction shooters have offered so far.

 

[Wildebeest]

Planetside makes all BR and Extraction games look boring and unambitious.

 

[Meicyn]

I think the issue is that MMORPG is a pretty broad genre compared to the sub genres of extraction or battle royale shooters.

Final Fantasy XI and Eve Online are both MMORPGs, but they are vastly different experiences.

 

[Guilty_AI]

I'm fine with a back and forth if he's interested. Me and him have done it before.

Honestly I started this thread because of that recent 'Halo BR cancelled' thread that was closed. I keep seeing the same sentiment over and over again on GAF in each BR cancellation or shutdown, which essentially is 'This is just like how MMOs were' which I just can't seem to agree with from a quality standpoint. On average I think MMOs during their boom were way better and more unique than what BRs and Extraction shooters have offered so far.

MMOs appeal to more casual players, MP competitive games in general are less appealing.

I think when people compare the two they're just refering to a sudden boom/perceived goldmine that must be harvested by publishers, then everyone and their mothers tried to do one, until eventually the excitement died down. Personally i don't think Extraction/BR will last besides a few key titles.

 

[March Climber]

MMOs appeal to more casual players, MP competitive games in general are less appealing.

I think when people compare the two they're just refering to a sudden boom/perceived goldmine that must be harvested by publishers, then everyone and their mothers tried to do one, until eventually the excitement died down. Personally i don't think Extraction/BR will last besides a few key titles.

I guess one issue is that the goldmine period lasted much, much longer with MMOs to where they arguably had a very strong impact as a genre and quite a few legacy titles are still alive to this day.

It's why I'd rather compare MMOs to turn based JRPGs, because rather than dying out, both simply fell out of favor but still exist as a genre with varied entries and newer games that come out to shake things up. Both are also thriving better on mobile/portable devices due to their gameplay that matches a portable experience. On the other hand I can easily see the BR genre simply consisting of 1-3 games and that's it. Eventually, there will be nothing new at all down the pipeline for BR. To me that makes a big difference.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

What a preposterous thread. I love it!

The BR/Extraction Shooter genre simply can not be compared to the MMORPG for two blatantly obvious reasons.

First, the MMORPG genre didn't make waves in the console space. It was never able to cross out of its PC prison until just recently. Battle Royale made waves on console, PC, and phones with the speed of lightning. It was such a considerably larger event that it single handedly ushered in the crossplay utopia we now experience. And unlike the MMORPG genre, the BR/ES revolution fundamentally changed the goals of massive players in the field. You're comparing a hail storm to the comet that killed the dinosaurs.

Secondly, OP is comparing the breadth and diversity of a 40+ year old genre (MUDs) with a 6 year old genre. Ryan Reynolds asks "Why?" My God man, give it time to grow. The Battle Royale/ES genre absolutely wiped the floor with the first 6 years of MMORPGs. I'm starting to realize more and more that many people are very short sighted in this industry. Everything is either boom or bust depending on silly factors. Looking even 2 - 5 years in the future is an insurmountable task for many. This thread really strikes me as someone wanting the genre to be cooked rather than it actually being cooked.

Furthermore, it's preposterous to see wave after wave of MMORPGs flop 10+ years ago and compare it to BR/ES, which has seen almost zero consecutive flops. Let's be real, shouldn't we wait for a handful of solid effort failures in a row before we move the genres designation? What's the hurry?

OP, it's time...

 

[March Climber]

What a preposterous thread. I love it!

The BR/Extraction Shooter genre simply can not be compared to the MMORPG for two blatantly obvious reasons.

First, the MMORPG genre didn't make waves in the console space. It was never able to cross out of its PC prison until just recently. Battle Royale made waves on console, PC, and phones with the speed of lightning. It was such a considerably larger event that it single handedly ushered in the crossplay utopia we now experience. And unlike the MMORPG genre, the BR/ES revolution fundamentally changed the goals of massive players in the field. You're comparing a hail storm to the comet that killed the dinosaurs.

I agree with this point. The unfortunate case is that MMORPGs during the boom were too early to come to consoles/phones, because the consoles and phones that were around during that time simply could not handle most of them. It is unfortunate, and if things had only happened around 10 years later I am very certain quite a few fun MMO games would have been not only saved but also bolstered by the combined playerbase of both platforms.

Secondly, OP is comparing the breadth and diversity of a 40+ year old genre (MUDs) with a 6 year old genre. Ryan Reynolds asks "Why?" My God man, give it time to grow. The Battle Royale/ES genre absolutely wiped the floor with the first 6 years of MMORPGs. I'm starting to realize more and more that many people are very short sighted in this industry. Everything is either boom or bust depending on silly factors. Looking even 2 - 5 years in the future is an insurmountable task for many. This thread really strikes me as someone wanting the genre to be cooked rather than it actually being cooked.

I'd like to clear the air here, but in order to for us to have an earnest conversation you have to be willing to read exactly what I'm typing, instead of interpreting what you want to take from my post. It's a bit of a bad habit of yours when we have a back and forth, and we all have bad habits here. I don't want BR and Extraction games to be cooked. If you look around GAF, many people here do. Many people here hate BRs and Extraction shooters because they consider the ones that aren't Fortnite, CoD, Tarkov, and Apex to be money sink gaas games that are ruining multiple franchises, studios, and resources.. Time will tell if that's true.

The reason I made this comparison is due to those same posters constantly wanting to compare every BR/ES failure to the MMO failures during the boom. My argument is that quality-wise, I can count way, way more MMOs that have provided unique and fun gameplay experiences(rather than them all copying WoW/ES) during the MMO boom, than I can count BR/ES games that have done such a thing(when they're more known to simply copy the big 3 BR games) during the current boom. I'm open to the genre growing, but I need to see more cases of it doing so first than what we currently have.

Furthermore, it's preposterous to see wave after wave of MMORPGs flop 10+ years ago and compare it to BR/ES, which has seen almost zero consecutive flops.

Don't make me go searching for a list of dead and cancelled BR/ES games. We both know they are out there lol. All 3 genres have had losses, so it's unfair to paint one as in shambles and the other as 'nearly everything here is fine'.

Let's be real, shouldn't we wait for a handful of solid effort failures in a row before we move the genres designation? What's the hurry?

Again, don't make me go looking lol.

It's not going to look good and it will also look like your long term memory isn't as good as others here. Again, I can start naming stuff now if you want: Radical Heights, Rumbleverse, The Culling, Hyperscape, FF7: First Soldier.... just saying

 

[Xion_Stellar]

First, the MMORPG genre didn't make waves in the console space.

I guess that depends on what you mean by "Waves" because playing PSO V.1 on the Dreamcast was certainly an experience for me.

 

[bender]

First, the MMORPG genre didn't make waves in the console space. It was never able to cross out of its PC prison until just recently.

 

[March Climber]

Xion_Stellar bender I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt and say that he meant 'on a consistent basis'. While PSO and FFXI were considered huge pioneers of the push to put MMOs on console, there was still a large lack of games that should have easily been ported to console.

Also, to add onto that, back then there was still a stigma against consoles from not only PC gamers, but also certain developers. I still distinctly remember the Guild Wars 1 and 2 devs scoffing/chuckling at the idea of a console port in interviews, when an 8 button MMOs like theirs could have easily worked (and multiple people including myself made work thanks to a 3rd party controller mod), and that style of gameplay was also an inspiration for a current MMO, Elder Scrolls Online.

I was always salty that I couldn't play Guild Wars on console. I was salty that Auto Assault, a literal Twisted Metal/Carmageddon/Mad Max MMO didn't make it to console. And I was even more upset that effort wasn't made to port Vindictus either, when that game literally has a console controller interface. Vindictus could be thriving even today, right now, because of how modern and fun the game felt to play.

There were a ton of missed opportunities and missed potential that BR/ES games managed to capitalize on, due to simply coming out during the right time, at the right places. And they're releasing on a more consistent basis. I just also feel that a ton of BR/ES games are falling from the sky way harder and way faster than MMOs ever did.

 

[bender]

March Climber EQOA which was finally shut down in 2012!

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

I'd like to clear the air here, but in order to for us to have an earnest conversation you have to be willing to read exactly what I'm typing, instead of interpreting what you want to take from my post. It's a bit of a bad habit of yours when we have a back and forth, and we all have bad habits here. I don't want BR and Extraction games to be cooked. If you look around GAF, many people here do.

My apologies. I get a little punch drunk constantly being surrounded by the haters all the time, lol.

The reason I made this comparison is due to those same posters constantly wanting to compare every BR/ES failure to the MMO failures during the boom. My argument is that quality-wise, I can count way, way more MMOs that have provided unique and fun gameplay experiences(rather than them all copying WoW/ES) during the MMO boom, than I can count BR/ES games that have done such a thing(when they're more known to simply copy the big 3 BR games) during the current boom.

You're comparing the diversity of a 40+ year old genre to the diversity of a 6 year old genre. I'd reiterate, the first 6 years of BR/ES absolutely wipes the floor with the first 6 years of the MMORPG.

Don't make me go searching for a list of dead and cancelled BR/ES games. We both know they are out there lol. All 3 genres have had losses, so it's unfair to paint one as in shambles and the other as 'nearly everything here is fine'.

Again, don't make me go looking lol.

It's not going to look good and it will also look like your long term memory isn't as good as others here. Again, I can start naming stuff now if you want: Radical Heights, Rumbleverse, The Culling, Hyperscape, FF7: First Soldier.... just saying

What will happen here is we will disagree on what a "high effort BR/ES" is.

For example, Radical Heights was slapped together in 3 months by a small, downing company. I don't consider it's failure to be relevant.

The difference here is that we have a laundry list of MMORPG flops from decent sized companies who worked on their MMO for 4+ years. We do not have a comparable list in the BR/ES space. A huge percentage of those failures are from small, underfunded studios who slapped together something quick.

 

[Meicyn]

I'd reiterate, the first 6 years of BR/ES absolutely wipes the floor with the first 6 years of the MMORPG.

I don’t think this is a fair thing to use as a point. When Ultima Online debuted in 1997 (I assume you’re using the late 90s here), anyone that happened to have internet was basically using dial-up on their PCs running Windows 95. Google didn’t even exist yet. There was no video streaming. There was no music streaming. Napster hadn’t been invented yet. Amazon was still strictly an online bookstore. The Dreamcast, the first serious attempt at online gaming for console, didn’t exist yet. Most ISPs were local startups as they hadn’t been all bought up by giant corporations.

Much of the first six years of MMORPGs occurred during the dot-com bubble when folks like me were still making websites on Geocities and conducting web searches using Altavista. When battle royale debuted, online gaming was the norm, rather than the exception. Hell, gaming as a whole, is way larger now than it was in the 90s. You can play Fortnite on a smartphone whereas in 1997, most folks were still using landline telephones to make calls and Apple’s iPod wouldn’t debut for another 4 years.