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[Flo_Evans]

Japan is not the whole world, but as I look at all my console/handheld games 90% of them are from JPN devs (my PC gets all the western love )

low JPN psp sales = low JPN PSP output.

I think alot of people are concerned because they didn't buy a PSP to play madden/GTA all the time. (At least I didn't)

 

[Deku]

Again it all goes back to economics.

People roll eyes and tune out Nintendo when they start talking about spiraling Dev costs, and untenable arms race in the games industry. And really, they are right. It is most obvious in the japanese game market because that market is contracting, but sooner or later it will affect the NA devs as well.

In the short term anyways, the DS with its combination of large installed base and low dev cost will endear itself to japanese developers.

I've said this before, but you need a model where 20k or 50k sales means a profit. This is how it used to be in the Famicom days, and if the DS can return those economics to developers, it will be a great boost to both the developers and the DS.

 

[Odnetnin]

The difference is that 2 months before the DS launch developers knew when the system was launching and about when they needed games done. 2 months before the PSP launch developers were going WTF IT'S COMING OUT IN TWO MONTHS!?!?! and have been scrambling to get projects moving since. E3 showed the western PSP developers still didn't have their act together, TGS will be the last straw and show if the Japanese PSP developers have gotten a handle on PSP development...or not :\

ON PSP game production

could also be that PSP games are more expensive to produce than ds. We're talking N64/GBA level graphics vs a portabler PS2. I mean, look at MGA,RR + WOP, even as a handheld title, it would have taken a long time to produce.

^^ reading through the rest of the thread, DEKU is right about dev cost too - sort of similar to what I've been saying. THe fact that DS is cheaper to produce games for and is having a substantially greater sales volume will start to hammer home to developers in general

 

[jarrod]

I guess if you assume that the rest of Sony Corp has a strictly parasitic relationship with SCEI that might be the case but aren't you the guy that typically likes to insinuate that Sony Corp is using some clever accounting to distribute some of SCEI's costs?

You must be confusing me with a certain Monster Hunting gaijun.

Those multiple revenue paths also involve multiple advertising paths as well, advertising that SCEI doesn't have to pay for that might net additional PSP sales that in turn helps them to make a case to 3rd party game publishers. You get significantly greater visibility for the PSP this way and its all on SCE's head if they can't capitalize on that for their own ends.

Sure, I just think the timing of it all is a bit risky. Right now SCEI needs to start turning a profit on PSP and I'm not sure that's possible with game sales like this.

I think its far from clear that things aren't going as Kutaragi expected. Look at any commentary by Kutaragi in at least the last 6-7 yrs and rarely will he mention Playstation without saying its more than just about games as well as discussing the implications of that approach.

I dunno... we're still in the handheld "ghetto" despite his best efforts.

 

[jarrod]

It's not that they can't spare the staff, its that if the ports are done Kojima wants to do them to make sure they're right. But he's not going to interrupt development of other games to do that.

Fair enough, but it's not like he's always handled the various ports of his previous games anyway. Metal Gear NES, Snatcher PSX/Saturn, Policenauts PSX/Saturn and MGS2S PC/Xbox were all handled by other Konami divisions and MGS PC and MGS TTS were done by outside companies entirely. Konami should really do the same for MGS3/4.

 

[SolidSnakex]

Metal Gear NES, Snatcher PSX/Saturn, Policenauts PSX/Saturn and MGSS PC/Xbox were all handled by other divisions.

Doesn't that kinda give you a good idea as to why he wants to be the one to do them?

 

[jarrod]

Doesn't that kinda give you a good idea as to why he wants to be the one to do them?

Why? The best version of Snatcher was on PSone and the best version of Policenauts was on Saturn.

 

[SolidSnakex]

I'm referring to the MG's. Considering the quality of the titles when they haven't been in his control, it makes sense that he's saying that the only way they're being ported is if he's the one behind it. Notice that he always says that he isn't going to direct the next game only to go ahead and actually direct it?

Lets also not forget Twin Snakes. We all know how that turned out.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Again it all goes back to economics.

People roll eyes and tune out Nintendo when they start talking about spiraling Dev costs, and untenable arms race in the games industry. And really, they are right. It is most obvious in the japanese game market because that market is contracting, but sooner or later it will affect the NA devs as well.

In the short term anyways, the DS with its combination of large installed base and low dev cost will endear itself to japanese developers.

I've said this before, but you need a model where 20k or 50k sales means a profit. This is how it used to be in the Famicom days, and if the DS can return those economics to developers, it will be a great boost to both the developers and the DS.

I think those target sales are low for anything but a budget title (the 'Simple' series, for example). I don't recall the exact margins, but on a $50k SKU if the publisher gets $30 then 100k in sales would net $3m to the developer. On a system like the DS in particular that sounds like a big budget.

 

[jarrod]

I'm referring to the MG's. Considering the quality of the titles when they haven't been in his control, it makes sense that he's saying that the only way they're being ported is if he's the one behind it. Notice that he always says that he isn't going to direct the next game only to go ahead and actually direct it? He doesn't trust others with his series.

Well, he trusted other teams to handle those ports at least, I don't see the problem in doing it again. All the inhouse Konami ports were high quality, MG NES suffered the most really. MGS2S just had some slight slowdown and visual glitches (thanks to moving from PS2's highly specialized architecture)... I wouldn't say any of them were "low quality" (except maybe Microsoft's PC port of MGS). It'd be worth the resources to spread Konami's top brands around though, and not just for Kojima's games either.

 

[Odnetnin]

I'm referring to the MG's. Considering the quality of the titles when they haven't been in his control, it makes sense that he's saying that the only way they're being ported is if he's the one behind it. Notice that he always says that he isn't going to direct the next game only to go ahead and actually direct it?

Lets also not forget Twin Snakes. We all know how that turned out.

a) twin snakes wasn't a port; more like a remake

b) gameplay wise, it wasn't a dog.

c) visually, it was somewhat flawed but not atrocious

d) the redone cutscenes were GREAT fun.

 

[Deku]

I think those target sales are low for anything but a budget title (the 'Simple' series, for example). I don't recall the exact margins, but on a $50k SKU if the publisher gets $30 then 100k in sales would net $3m to the developer. On a system like the DS in particular that sounds like a big budget.

Not really. In the Famicom days, lots of games got released and not all of them sold very well.

You need to think outside of the box and get out of typecasting games based on budgets. Not every game is going to sell 100k, even fewer will hit 500k and only really special games will hit 1 million and beyond.

Lowering the development costs means more games and the ability to turn a profit with smaller units sold. Which means games that would normally not get made because their expected sales will be too small will now get made. And out of those games, there will be the occasional breakout hits that does way beyond what the developers expect. That in turn will feed into the cycle of developers putting money to make more games in hopes they'll strike the next hit.

The games is all about momentum and network effects. If developers find it in their interest to make lots of games for the DS, they will do so, and as a result, it will help the DS even more, without Nintendo doing anything overtly to help push sales, and there will be no need for moneybags, aside from perhaps purchasing an exclusive or two or helping fund a big budget release.


$100k for a DS title is probably a modest budget, not a big one, but you can probably make a DS game for $50k or less with a small team of programmers and artists. That means if the game sells 30k units with $2 per unit going to the developer, it is already profitable.

 

[SolidSnakex]

All the inhouse Konami ports were high quality, MG NES suffered the most really. MGS2S just had some slight slowdown and visual glitches (thanks to moving from PS2's highly specialized architecture)... I

Substance had "slight" slowdown? Have you played the game? MGS2 had slight slowdown during the rain, what Substance has is by no means "slight".

a) twin snakes wasn't a port; more like a remake

I was using it as an example of a game in the series that he didn't have full control over.

 

[Link]

It's not that they can't spare the staff, its that if the ports are done Kojima wants to do them to make sure they're right. But he's not going to interrupt development of other games to do that.

No, jarrod is right. Konami releases dozens of games a year, and most of them are worthless crap. You cut out even 1/4 of those, and you'd have plenty of staff for a port job. Sure, Kojima is busy working on the one, maybe two, games he has going, but you're telling me he can't take a few minutes a day to make sure code is being ported properly?

Yes, I know Metal Gear games are coded to the metal, but with all the staff they waste on all the games they release, that staff would be much better served working on ports of their big guns, even if it isn't Metal Gear specifically.

 

[Doom_Bringer]

nm

 

[Odnetnin]

Substance had "slight" slowdown? Have you played the game? MGS2 had slight slowdown during the rain, what Substance has is by no means "slight".



I was using it as an example of a game in the series that he didn't have full control over.

1) the slowdown issue is way overplayed. Its not like the tanker incident bit played on for a long time or that you were out in the rain for long.

2) true dat.

 

[jarrod]

Substance had "slight" slowdown? Have you played the game? MGS2 had slight slowdown during the rain, what Substance has is by no means "slight".

Beside the point really, Kojima doesn't need to hold hands with other teams for them to port his games. KCEO proved that when they produced better versions of Snatcher & Policenauts than he could.

 

[jman2050]

Not really. In the Famicom days, lots of games got released and not all of them sold very well.

You need to think outside of the box and get out of typecasting games based on budgets. Not every game is going to sell 100k, even fewer will hit 500k and only really special games will hit 1 million and beyond.

Lowering the development costs means more games and the ability to turn a profit with smaller units sold. Which means games that would normally not get made because their expected sales will be too small will now get made. And out of those games, there will be the occasional breakout hits that does way beyond what the developers expect. That in turn will feed into the cycle of developers putting money to make more games in hopes they'll strike the next hit.

The games is all about momentum and network effects. If developers find it in their interest to make lots of games for the DS, they will do so, and as a result, it will help the DS even more, without Nintendo doing anything overtly to help push sales, and there will be no need for moneybags, aside from perhaps purchasing an exclusive or two or helping fund a big budget release.


$100k for a DS title is probably a modest budget, not a big one, but you can probably make a DS game for $50k or less with a small team of programmers and artists. That means if the game sells 30k units with $2 per unit going to the developer, it is already profitable.

Head? Meet Nail. Nail? Head.

 

[SolidSnakex]

Beside the point really, Kojima doesn't need to hold hands with other teams for them to port his games.

How's it beside the point? The quality of Substance wasn't up to his standards. If he doesn't want the game to be ported around to every system without being in control of them, what exactly is the problem?

 

[jarrod]

How's it beside the point? The quality of Substance wasn't up to his standards. If he doesn't want the game to be ported around to every system without being in control of them, what exactly is the problem?

Because it's been proven that the ported games can even exceed his own "standards". It's been done before.

Anyway, KCEJW was overseeing the Substance ports directly. They had final approval on it, if the game wasn't up to Kojima's "standards" why'd he let it see release?

 

[SolidSnakex]

We're talking about ports of MG right? So why keep bringing up ports of games that aren't part of the series? He's reluctant to ports of MG because of how ports of games in that series have turned out.

 

[jarrod]

We're talking about ports of MG right? So why keep bringing up ports of games that aren't part of the series? He's reluctant to ports of MG because of how ports of games in that series have turned out.

We're talking about ports of Kojima games period. There's more than one precedent set for worthwhile ports of his games, sometimes even exclipsing his originals. Maybe that's *really* why he doesn't want anyone touching his stuff.

You can try to sidestep the issue all you like, but his concerns are pretty much crap. All he needs is a reliable team (like the old KCEO) to handle the ports under his supervision. I dunno, hopefully Kojima sticks to directing... he obviously doesn't have the smarts to move to the business side of things.

 

[duckroll]

Hahahaha, what the fuck? Solidsnakex vs jarrod and both have their facts all wrong! What a day! :lol

Kojima never said he doesn't want ports of any of his games done because he was "unhappy with the results" of other ports. That's complete and utter bullcrap. As for Kojima having nothing to do with Policenauts and Snatcher PSX/Saturn, that's complete bullcrap TOO! WTF?

Let's make something clear. ALL and I mean EVERY SINGLE ONE of Kojima's games that are ported are in some way monitored by him. Some have a more hands-on approach, some have a more hands-off one. This means that regardless what is being ported, Kojima looks at it in some way. He isn't against other teams porting his games nor does he let other teams do whatever they want with his games.

Several factors are involved as to why certain games are not ported and none of them have to do with the stupid fanboy reasons you two have been arguing about. First of all, there's no market for Policenauts and Snatcher in today's market enviroment. You can argue it all you want but it's just not worth Konami's money to port those to current-gen systems just for the fans. Kojima has said he would like to one day, but they would require improvements which he does not have time for because of NEW GAMES he constantly makes. As far as MGS3 Subsistence is concerned he said that he did consider a Xbox port and was very impressed by Xbox Live, but he felt that to port the entire engine to a machine that has very low userbase in Japan and at the end of it's lifetime just because of an improved online network is a waste of resources. He's completely right on this one as well. Kojima isn't just a game designer, he's also vice-president of Konami, so before you say "Thank god he doesn't run all of Konami", think again.

 

[SolidSnakex]

How am I sidestepping it? We're talking about why there aren't ports of MGS3/4. The reason is because he hasn't been pleased with the ports of the previous games in that series. Yah Snatcher/Policenauts ports were good, but does that suddenly make those MG ports better? Snatcher and Policenauts ports were released around 8 years ago. Substance was released 2 years ago, Twin Snakes was released 1 year ago.

 

[duckroll]

How am I sidestepping it? We're talking about why there aren't ports of MGS3/4. The reason is because he hasn't been pleased with the ports of the previous games in that series. Yah Snatcher/Policenauts ports were good, but does that suddenly make those MG ports better? Snatcher and Policenauts ports were released around 8 years ago. Substance was released 2 years ago, Twin Snakes was released 1 year ago.

STOP

TALKING

OUT

OF

YOUR

ASS!

We're talking about ports of Kojima games period. There's more than one precedent set for worthwhile ports of his games, sometimes even exclipsing his originals. Maybe that's *really* why he doesn't want anyone touching his stuff.

You can try to sidestep the issue all you like, but his concerns are pretty much crap. All he needs is a reliable team (like the old KCEO) to handle the ports under his supervision. I dunno, hopefully Kojima sticks to directing... he obviously doesn't have the smarts to move to the business side of things.

YOU

TOO!

 

[GhaleonEB]

Not really. In the Famicom days, lots of games got released and not all of them sold very well.

You need to think outside of the box and get out of typecasting games based on budgets. Not every game is going to sell 100k, even fewer will hit 500k and only really special games will hit 1 million and beyond.

Lowering the development costs means more games and the ability to turn a profit with smaller units sold. Which means games that would normally not get made because their expected sales will be too small will now get made. And out of those games, there will be the occasional breakout hits that does way beyond what the developers expect. That in turn will feed into the cycle of developers putting money to make more games in hopes they'll strike the next hit.

The games is all about momentum and network effects. If developers find it in their interest to make lots of games for the DS, they will do so, and as a result, it will help the DS even more, without Nintendo doing anything overtly to help push sales, and there will be no need for moneybags, aside from perhaps purchasing an exclusive or two or helping fund a big budget release.


$100k for a DS title is probably a modest budget, not a big one, but you can probably make a DS game for $50k or less with a small team of programmers and artists. That means if the game sells 30k units with $2 per unit going to the developer, it is already profitable.

I'm all for thinking outside of the box, but you have to be realistic as well. Figure three people working for a salary of $35k for a year on a game, that's $105k. I don't see how anyting but a really tiny 'budget' game can be made for less than a million or so. It's just the reality of the world right now.

 

[jarrod]

Let's make something clear. ALL and I mean EVERY SINGLE ONE of Kojima's games that are ported are in some way monitored by him.

Even MG NES and MGS PC? I thought both were out of his hands?

As for Kojima having nothing to do with Policenauts and Snatcher PSX/Saturn, that's complete bullcrap TOO! WTF?

Where'd anyone say this?

Kojima isn't just a game designer, he's also vice-president of Konami, so before you say "Thank god he doesn't run all of Konami", think again.

I thought it over again already. He's simply better suited to directing than management.

Though when fed false information on what he says, can you really blame me for this sort of thinking?

 

[duckroll]

Even MG NES and MGS PC? I thought both were out of his hands?



I thought it over again already. He's simply better suited to directing than management.

I suggest you just stop posting about this matter in this thread because you and Solidsnakex are making complete and utter fools out of yourselves.

 

[Odnetnin]

STOP

TALKING

OUT

OF

YOUR

ASS!



YOU

TOO!

:applauses

 

[jarrod]

I suggest you just stop posting about this matter in this thread because you and Solidsnakex are making complete and utter fools out of yourselves.

So... Kojima was invloved with MGS PC and MG NES? Yes or no?

 

[Link]

People like Miyamoto and Kojima should stick to the development side of things. Once they shift over to management, not only are they out of their element, but they get pulled away from what they do best. It's really lose-lose.

 

[duckroll]

So... Kojima was invloved with MGS PC and MG NES? Yes or no?

Teams in Konami back in those days were -much- smaller than they are today. Kojima did not expressively port Metal Gear to the NES himself, but he was aware of it. Did he like it? Well he liked it enough to include that version on a bonus disc for the limited edition Twin Snakes Gamecube bundle in Japan.

MGS PC was a port of MGS Integral by Microsoft. Kojima gave them the nod, but didn't have anything to contribute to the project.

Please, stop this mindnumbingly dumb argument about Kojima's ports, because just about everything you two are bickering about are either plain misinformation, fanboy myths, fanboy opinions being expressed falsely using Kojima's name, or all of the above.

 

[Ruzbeh]

People like Miyamoto and Kojima should stick to the development side of things. Once they shift over to management, not only are they out of their element, but they get pulled away from what they do best. It's really lose-lose.

Miyamoto is really some kind of genius visionary. He really knows what people want and I think he might be able to get non-gamers to start gaming. In order to do that, I think he might need a position where he gets a lot to say at Nintendo. But he will be able to say a lot no matter what position he has at Nintendo!

 

[jarrod]

Teams in Konami back in those days were -much- smaller than they are today. Kojima did not expressively port Metal Gear to the NES himself, but he was aware of it. Did he like it? Well he liked it enough to include that version on a bonus disc for the limited edition Twin Snakes Gamecube bundle in Japan.

MGS PC was a port of MGS Integral by Microsoft. Kojima gave them the nod, but didn't have anything to contribute to the project.

But were both games "in some way monitored" by him through development? And if not, are SSX and I not the only ones bringing "plain misinformation" to the table?

FWIW, I've read Kojima gave Snake's Revenge his "blessing" or something but from my understanding he was never invovled in any NES development.

 

[duckroll]

But were both games "in some way monitored" by him through development? And if not, are SSX and I not the only ones bringing "plain misinformation" to the table?

FWIW, I've read Kojima gave Snake's Revenge his "blessing" or something but from my understanding he was never invovled in any NES development.

Aw fuck it, I'm just going to put you on ignore again. I'm sick of morons arguing for the POINT of arguing. Bye.

 

[Firest0rm]

STOP

TALKING

OUT

OF

YOUR

ASS!



YOU

TOO!

Don't you know SSx is Kojima's personal secretary!?

 

[jarrod]

Aw fuck it, I'm just going to put you on ignore again. I'm sick of morons arguing for the POINT of arguing. Bye.

Fair enough. Seems we've all made "complete and utter fools out of yourselves" with "misinformation" here. Good try at coming down and showing the way though Ducky.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Fair enough. Seems we've all made "complete and utter fools out of yourselves" with "misinformation" here. Good try at coming down and showing the way though Ducky.

:lol

 

[Link]

Miyamoto is really some kind of genius visionary. He really knows what people want and I think he might be able to get non-gamers to start gaming. In order to do that, I think he might need a position where he gets a lot to say at Nintendo. But he will be able to say a lot no matter what position he has at Nintendo!

I disagree. He's got lots of good ideas, but he's not someone you want running your company. He doesn't know enough of the business side of things. Leave him to providing the great software content, but leave the management side of things to the people that are professionals in that field.

Look at Iwata. Game developer-turned-president, and he's been flailing like he's stranded at sea. He just doesn't have a strong enough grasp on the ways to run a business, and Nintendo is suffering for it.

Like you said, Miyamoto would have a say regardless of what position he holds, so why even bother? Let him spread his wings and have him do what he does best: make games.

 

[Odnetnin]

Look at Iwata. Game developer-turned-president, and he's been flailing like he's stranded at sea. He just doesn't have a strong enough grasp on the ways to run a business, and Nintendo is suffering for it.

On Iwata:

Except the DS is proving to be good business.

The GC is Yamauchi's legacy. Iwata just had to contend with what he had.

Revolution however is still a huge unknown. This whole controller thing might pan out better than we all think. if there's one thing Nintendo knows, its how to make things fun

 

[Link]

Actually, isn't Yamauchi on record as saying the DS was his idea?

 

[C- Warrior]

You know, this is totally OT, but might as well ask since Capcom has been mentioned a few times in this thread.

Does Resident Evil 4 support HDTV @ 420p?

Thanks.

 

[Deku]

I'm all for thinking outside of the box, but you have to be realistic as well. Figure three people working for a salary of $35k for a year on a game, that's $105k. I don't see how anyting but a really tiny 'budget' game can be made for less than a million or so. It's just the reality of the world right now.

A DS game can probably be made in 6 months with a 3 man team, which would mean half of your 105k figure. Actually, the quick turnover of the DS from announcement to reality and the speed with which software has been put out for it seems to confirm this.

But I agree with you that not every game is going to come in at this figure, but you know, 50k today ain't what it use to be in the 80s. That said, Nintendo's concern over the average game costing in the millions to develop and everyone expecting it to have the best graphics, best sound, best story and requiring it to sell upwards of 200k copies is well grounded in the reality of industry economics.

Simply put, not every game is going to sell in those numbers and sometimes, games will just bomb even with big budgets. The desire, and I would argue, the NEED, to scale down budgets and still make interesting, fun and entertaining games is a very important part of the gaming industry.

Games is a new thing, relatively speaking. We've been used to every generation producing better graphics. The technology has kept pace, but the costs simply have not. Had productivity of your average team kept pace, we should still be able to make the most amazingly beautiful game with the same sized team that put together your average game in the FamiCom and SuperFamicom days. But that's no longer the case.

This isn't a rant against the Halos, and Zeldas of the industry, I think those have their place and the industry's maturity requires blockbuster releases with development costs of that magnitude. But as far as where Sony wants to take the industry, versus where Nintendo wants to take it, I see more wisdom in Nintendo's decision.

They may be rooted in the Japanese industry's needs and the reasoning may be opaque to many here at GAF, but ultimately, what is good for Japan is still probably good for the rest of the world, even if Japanese developers have seen a relative decline in their influence.

 

[Odnetnin]

A DS game can probably be made in 6 months with a 3 man team, which would mean half of your 105k figure. Actually, the quick turnover of the DS from announcement to reality and the speed with which software has been put out for it seems to confirm this.

But I agree with you that not every game is going to come in at this figure, but you know, 50k today ain't what it use to be in the 80s. That said, Nintendo's concern over the average game costing in the millions to develop and everyone expecting it to have the best graphics, best sound, best story and requiring it to sell upwards of 200k copies is well grounded in the reality of industry economics.

Simply put, not every game is going to sell in those numbers and sometimes, games will just bomb even with big budgets. The desire, and I would argue, the NEED, to scale down budgets and still make interesting, fun and entertaining games is a very important part of the gaming industry.

Games is a new thing, relatively speaking. We've been used to every generation producing better graphics. The technology has kept pace, but the costs simply have not. Had productivity of your average team kept pace, we should still be able to make the most amazingly beautiful game with the same sized team that put together your average game in the FamiCom and SuperFamicom days. But that's no longer the case.

This isn't a rant against the Halos, and Zeldas of the industry, I think those have their place and the industry's maturity requires blockbuster releases with development costs of that magnitude. But as far as where Sony wants to take the industry, versus where Nintendo wants to take it, I see more wisdom in Nintendo's decision.

They may be rooted in the Japanese industry's needs and the reasoning may be opaque to many here at GAF, but ultimately, what is good for Japan is still probably good for the rest of the world, even if Japanese developers have seen a relative decline in their influence.

Meteos was prototyped in 3 weeks on the DS with 3 people working on it? Mizuguchi was saying how good/easy it was to work with the system. Its also already outsold Lumines... so :/

I think at the end of the day, dev cost and the fact that teams for DS won't have to be massive because of the DS's specs itself would make it truly the "DEVELOPER SYSTEM" Iwata trumped it to be. The fact that art + texturing on DS would be less ardous/intensive than say a PSP title will make it cheaper to develop for. I mean, we had that Konami guy going on the record to say that PSP games are essentially PS2 games. But without the installed base.

But ultimately it comes down to sales. If the games don't sell enough, then PSP development isn't the way most developers are going to go. Profit margin is well and truly the bottom line.

 

[GhaleonEB]

A DS game can probably be made in 6 months with a 3 man team, which would mean half of your 105k figure. Actually, the quick turnover of the DS from announcement to reality and the speed with which software has been put out for it seems to confirm this.

But I agree with you that not every game is going to come in at this figure, but you know, 50k today ain't what it use to be in the 80s. That said, Nintendo's concern over the average game costing in the millions to develop and everyone expecting it to have the best graphics, best sound, best story and requiring it to sell upwards of 200k copies is well grounded in the reality of industry economics.

Simply put, not every game is going to sell in those numbers and sometimes, games will just bomb even with big budgets. The desire, and I would argue, the NEED, to scale down budgets and still make interesting, fun and entertaining games is a very important part of the gaming industry.

Games is a new thing, relatively speaking. We've been used to every generation producing better graphics. The technology has kept pace, but the costs simply have not. Had productivity of your average team kept pace, we should still be able to make the most amazingly beautiful game with the same sized team that put together your average game in the FamiCom and SuperFamicom days. But that's no longer the case.

This isn't a rant against the Halos, and Zeldas of the industry, I think those have their place and the industry's maturity requires blockbuster releases with development costs of that magnitude. But as far as where Sony wants to take the industry, versus where Nintendo wants to take it, I see more wisdom in Nintendo's decision.

They may be rooted in the Japanese industry's needs and the reasoning may be opaque to many here at GAF, but ultimately, what is good for Japan is still probably good for the rest of the world, even if Japanese developers have seen a relative decline in their influence.

Oh, I agree with your overall point. I think the three camps are taking their own approach to how to address this. Microsoft and Sony see a software solution (XNA for Microsoft, the Unreal engine with ever kit for Sony), while Nintendo sees a hardware one. I don't think anyone is NOT concerned about the rise in costs for new games.

I guess my point, and I didn't make this clear at all, is that this kind of economy may be found at some level for the DS, but it will be tough to translate to the console space, in part because expectations for what a home system game offers is so much higher. "Budget" console games don't have much precidence of selling well or being particularly profitable in the US on consoles. (I'm not talking about hits that are then discounted to some "platinum" line here.)

Higher production values take time and talent, and that means money. It's gonna be real tough to adapt the DS model to the home systems.

 

[WrathOfOtaibah]

Look at all these people talking about DS costs when they have no idea how much they are. There have been quite a few DS bombs so far. If you don't have name recognition or hype, then it isn't going to sell. Games like Brain Training have been around since gaming itself. 153k isn't a whole hell of a lot.

I think the PSP sales is a symbol that US and Europe are the two gaming territories that hold weight anymore. Where the best game in Japan will probably sell no more than 100,000 the first month, thats probably barely in the Top 10 in the US.

Edit: Some proof of this is Lumines. 40k sold in Japan and lucky to ever hit 50k. Here in the US it went past 100,000 in 5 weeks and has a decent chance of hitting 200k.

 

[LowTecky]

I think the PSP sales is a symbol that US and Europe are the two gaming territories that hold weight anymore.

The PSP is out in Europe? Oh.

 

[Jonnyram]

Look at all these people talking about DS costs when they have no idea how much they are.

I think we can assume, without much worry, that DS games are not as complex to develop as PSP games. If you have issues with that assumption, I can't say anything more.

I think the PSP sales is a symbol that US and Europe are the two gaming territories that hold weight anymore. Where the best game in Japan will probably sell no more than 100,000 the first month, thats probably barely in the Top 10 in the US.

Can you expand on this a bit. It's difficult to see what you mean.

Edit: Some proof of this is Lumines. 40k sold in Japan and lucky to ever hit 50k. Here in the US it went past 100,000 in 5 weeks and has a decent chance of hitting 200k.

I don't see how this is really relevant, since the PSP installed base in Japan is about the same as the US. Usually game sales are different because there are so many more owners in the US, but this isn't the case with the PSP. Lumines succeeded in the US because it had huge media backing. Did you realise it was the number 1 game in Newsweek, and it's been #1 on gamerankings for a while too?

 

[Hurricane_Chris]

DS 32,765
PS2 27,741
PSP 21,476
GBASP 8,522
GC 2,558
GBA 623
Xbox 131

 

[Fuzzy]

YTD / LTD
DS - 972,202 / 2,467,798
PSP - 936,892 / 1,419,144
DS Lead - 35,310 / 1,048,654

The DS is getting close to its biggest lead over the PSP (1,059,853 for 01/03-01/09).