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[civilstrife]

Then you need two sensor bars (sensor bar will be confused by more than one IR emitter), but the real problem is that there is no reliable mechanism for centering the cursor with the IR/sensor bar.

Um... that's not true at all. Of course you can use multiple Wiimotes. How do you expect to play multiplayer games?

 

[Edwood]

Weren't there two Wii-mote's being used for that drum game?

Two Wii-motes could make for an interesting and perhaps compelling FPS gaming control experience.

Spoiler

But the game would still look like shit.

 

[Edwood]

:lol He was inspired after watching my footage of 1up Skip doing his Tennis bit.

Would it be bad form for me to upload that? :lol

Playing is believing? More like playing is make believing!

I am no match for Skip's mullet.

 

[Shogmaster]

Um... that's not true at all. Of course you can use multiple Wiimotes. How do you expect to play multiplayer games?

In those mutiplayer games, you don't use Wiimote's IR capability. MP3 can't be played from one Wii with only one sensor bar AFAIK.

Weren't there two Wii-mote's being used for that drum game?

Yes, but the IR is not being used for that. Think for a minute. IR is line of sight. How would that work than you are shaking the shit out of the Wiimote?

Two Wii-motes could make for an interesting and perhaps compelling FPS gaming control experience.

Spoiler

But the game would still look like shit.

No it would not since auto centering is an issue with such a free hand method of cursor control. Double that problem and you will chuck the Wiimotes out of frustration within a minute of play.

Spoiler

And for the record, I don't mind the graphics shown for MP3. I thought it looked nice. Red Steel on the other hand.....

 

[Edwood]

Yes, but the IR is not being used for that. Think for a minute. IR is line of sight. How would that work than you are shaking the shit out of the Wiimote?



No it would not since auto centering is an issue with such a free hand method of cursor control. Double that problem and you will chuck the Wiimotes out of frustration within a minute of play.

Spoiler

And for the record, I don't mind the graphics shown for MP3. I thought it looked nice. Red Steel on the other hand.....

True, the IR was not working at all for the tennis game. How the hell could it register anything with the tennis moves I was doing.

Already had auto center calibration problems with the ONE Wii-mote with MP3. Even in "Expert" mode.

I don't mind MP3's graphics either.

Spoiler

If I was living in 2004.

 

[Emotions]

Wow , i see the trolling is going strong in these thread with just 2 users, keep going guys.

 

[Shogmaster]

Wow , i see the trolling is going strong in these thread with just 2 users, keep going guys, you represent the majority here.

You can keep calling it trolling if it makes you feel better. The problem is, you have no idea how it plays with FPS where as we do since we've experience it.

 

[Emotions]

You can keep calling it trolling if it makes you feel better. The problem is, you have no idea how it plays with FPS where as we do since we've experience it.

I agree with you on that but you're not the only ones who played them, there are several other people too and have given positive impressions , so i don't see why should i believe 2 people who are constantly saying negative things about Nintendo, over the majority of positive impressions. I'm not saying you're liying but i take yours as just another opinion wich kinda gets lost in the sea of positive ones.
I'm not from the US , so no E3 for me, but i'm getting a Wii on day one. Along with MP3 and several other games.

 

[Shogmaster]

I agree with you on that but you're not the only ones who played them, there are several other people too and have given positive impressions , so i don't see why should i believe 2 people who are constantly saying negative things about Nintendo, over the majority of positive impressions. I'm not saying you're liying but i take yours as just another opinion wich kinda gets lost in the sea of positive ones.
I'm not from the US , so no E3 for me, but i'm getting a Wii on day one. Along with MP3 and several other games.

There were plenty of people who said MP1 and MP2's controls were great too. If you are one of those as well, then this conversation is all but moot.

Ed and I came into this thing hoping for a console controller that would improve and advance the way FPS controls are done. That's what was itimated for months and months. What they gave us instead can't even hold a candle to dual analog since there's no way to circle strafe. Sure, within the limited context of MP's gameplay, it works OK, but you can't apply such limited gameplay to all FPSes.

So undertand what I'm saying. Wii will thrive on games that largely automate the controls and make the experience relatively simple for the user. And that's great for attracting casual gamers. But this industry's business model is not built on casual gamers that might buy one or two games a year, and play maybe a hour or two a week. That kind of attachment rate will be disaster for Nintendo if they don't make the gameplay in their game compelling for hardcore users as well. And for those hardcore users like us, the Wiimote is a huge disappointment since the complex controls are regressing, not progressing.

 

[Deku]

When did dual analog become the standard for non casual hardcore FPS gaming? Most FPS players I've spoken to see the console FPS games as poor cousins of the real hard-core stuff on the PC and the lack of a mouse/keyboard combo means aiming with a control pad is always going to be sneered on by the PC crowd where the FPS base is at. Not consoles.

I'm by no means an FPS expert, but I'm pretty sure we'll see different kinds of FPS games that play to the control mechanism's strengths, mainly the aiming mechanism. If you frame your entire argument around what a dual-analog set-up can do after 9 or so years of trial and error by developers, with what is essentially a new control scheme with 1 game to show for it, I think you'll draw the conclusions you draw everytime and it isn't a particular fair conclusion.

But you know, Wii and consoles in general aren't designed as FPS machines. The controls aren't there. And they doem't even have the graphics horsepower to satisfy the elite crowd of FPS gamers who upgrade their videocard every 9 months. So yes, Nintendo doesn't care if its casual , hardcore, semi-casuals who play the FPS games that are made for this machine. Their purpose is to have new types of FPS experiences on the Wii and break out of the contraints of gamepad based aiming.

 

[Shogmaster]

When did dual analog become the standard for non casual hardcore FPS gaming? Most FPS players I've spoken to see the console FPS games as poor cousins of the real hard-core stuff on the PC and the lack of a mouse/keyboard combo means aiming with a control pad is always going to be sneered on by the PC crowd where the FPS base is at. Not consoles.

This is exactly why alot of us console FPS aficionados were expecting alot from the Wii.

I'm by no means an FPS expert, but I'm pretty sure we'll see different kinds of FPS games that play to the control mechanism's strengths, mainly the aiming mechanism.

And that's what MP3 and Red Steel is. They have debased FPS experience into a light gun game that you control WASD movement in.

If you frame your entire argument around what a dual-analog set-up after 9 or so years of trial and error by developers, with what is essentially a new control scheme with 1 game to show for it, I think you'll draw the same conclusions you draw everytime.

That's BS. There were plenty of console first and third person shooters that got the controls right from the get go. Some of them didn't even have two analog sticks to accomplish it (MDK2 on DC).

 

[Monk]

So undertand what I'm saying. Wii will thrive on games that largely automate the controls and make the experience relatively simple for the user. And that's great for attracting casual gamers. But this industry's business model is not built on casual gamers that might buy one or two games a year, and play maybe a hour or two a week. That kind of attachment rate will be disaster for Nintendo if they don't make the gameplay in their game compelling for hardcore users as well. And for those hardcore users like us, the Wiimote is a huge disappointment since the complex controls are regressing, not progressing.

Uh, the whole point of the wiimote is to have simpler controls. And hardcore gamers is not enough going by all the doom and gloom theories shelled out as of recently. And when exactly did you use the wiimote? Third day? Is it possible that the wiimote went under a biut of wear and tear like the DS last year and thus didnt control properly?

 

[Blackcherry]

Uh, the whole point of the wiimote is to have simpler controls. And hardcore gamers is not enough going by all the doom and gloom theories shelled out as of recently. And when exactly did you use the wiimote? Third day? Is it possible that the wiimote went under a biut of wear and tear like the DS last year and thus didnt control properly?

huh?

 

[Monk]

huh?

Well the ds last year at E3 got scrathed to hell and back. By the third day it was pretty much useless.

 

[Shogmaster]

Uh, the whole point of the wiimote is to have simpler controls.

Yes it is. It's defnitely not to improve the fuctionality of complex controls, like for FPS games.

And hardcore gamers is not enough going by all the doom and gloom theories shelled out as of recently.

You need both hardcore and casuals. You can't abandon hardcore for the casuals. That's simply a broken biz model for this industry. I'd say X360 will be better at doing both hardcore (the usual games) and casuals (XBLA).

And when exactly did you use the wiimote? Third day? Is it possible that the wiimote went under a biut of wear and tear like the DS last year and thus didnt control properly?

I used the Wiimote on the first and second day (I went back because some tool told me Red Steel does the controls WAAAY better than MP3. HA!).

 

[Monk]

I used the Wiimote on the first and second day (I went back because some tool told me Red Steel does the controls WAAAY better than MP3. HA!).

So why haven't the big sites mentioned this. Care to explain how exactly the controller was unresponsive etc? Is it something you can look past?

 

[volmer]

Ed and I came into this thing hoping for a console controller that would improve and advance the way FPS controls are done.

The controller has the ability to do this - it sounds very much like a software problem. As was discussed earlier, mainly by PhunkFury and others - search, the IR/whatever-tracking is clearly not enough in its own right, but when coupled with the accelerometers in the controller it should be: It "simply" needs middleware that correctly recalibrates controller whenever sensor bar comes into sight and automatically uses accelerometers for tracking when sensor bar is out of sight.

To sum it up: Have patience.

 

[Shogmaster]

So why haven't the big sites mentioned this. Care to explain how exactly the controller was unresponsive etc? Is it something you can look past?

Can you look past not having direct control of the look camera? Having to push the cursor to the edge of the screen to scoot the camera view?

The controller has the ability to do this - it sounds very much like a software problem. As was discussed earlier, mainly by PhunkFury and others - search, the IR/whatever-tracking is clearly not enough in its own right, but when coupled with the accelerometers in the controller it should be: It "simply" needs middleware that correctly recalibrates controller whenever sensor bar comes into sight and automatically uses accelerometers for tracking when sensor bar is out of sight.

To sum it up: Have patience.

The only way to do it is with the gyroscope. IR and accelerometer just won't work with controlling the look camera. Of course the problem with cheap gyroscope used in Wiimote is the delayed reaction due to inertia.

 

[volmer]

The only way to do it is with the gyroscope. IR and accelerometer just won't work with controlling the look camera. Of course the problem with cheap gyroscope used in Wiimote is the delayed reaction due to inertia.

As far as I understand, not really: The delays people experienced in the controller registering movement have not been due to the accelerometer reporting in late, but simply due to the games being based on pattern-recognition (see: Red Steel sword-fights - clearly a move isn't executed until the player has already made a swipe or how would it be recognized as a swipe?) rather than direct translation of movement to an object in the game (wii sports baseball as an example).

I think it'll work perfectly come TGS and release, they just need to nail the middleware.

 

[Shogmaster]

As far as I understand, not really: The delays people experienced in the controller registering movement have not been due to the accelerometer reporting in late, but simply due to the games being based on pattern-recognition (see: Red Steel sword-fights - clearly a move isn't executed until the player has already made a swipe or how would it be recognized as a swipe?) rather than direct translation of movement to an object in the game (wii sports baseball as an example).

I was not complaining about delays for sword play in Red Steel. I was complaining about the IR emitter/sensor bar combo being a really poor mechanism for look camera in FPSes. Wrong topic bud.

I think it'll work perfectly come TGS and release, they just need to nail the middleware.

No amount of middleware will fix the fact that for FPSes, Wiimote is broken.

 

[Deku]

Didn't Sony have trouble with their Warhawk Tilt control as well with latency issues?

I didn't have a chance to play that title, but people I spoke to who played with both had better things to say about the Nintendo tilt function over the Sony one, albiet it's not an entirely fair comparison as ther is only 1 sample for DS3 controller.

What I'm trying to get my head around here is whether Shog's complaints is a hardware issue, software issue, inexperience on the developer's part due to the nature of the control scheme or somecobination of the above.

My general feeling is that this stuff is so new that trying to draw broad conclusions vis a vis FPS control models based on established gamepads that developers understand inside out with well established control conventions is a bit of a red herring. Shog disagrees with me, but I'm still not convinced of his point.

 

[Shogmaster]

Didn't Sony have trouble with their Warhawk Tilt control as well with latency issues?

Yep. Warhawk had a decent amount of delay with the controller. It's the damn gyros. You can't do much about it.

I didn't have a chance to play that title, but people I spoke to who played with both had better things to say about the Nintendo tilt function over the Sony one, albiet it's not an entirely fair comparison as ther is only 1 sample for DS3 controller.

Wii games using gyros (monkey ball, excite truck) also had delays.

What I'm trying to get my head around here is whether Shog's complaints is a hardware issue, software issue, inexperience on the developer's part due to the nature of the control scheme or somecobination of the above.

It's hardware issue. IR/sensor bar is not suited for advanced FPS controls period. It's in it's very nature.

My general feeling is that this stuff is so new that trying to draw broad conclusions vis a vis FPS control models based on established gamepads that developers understand inside out with well established control conventions is a bit of a red herring. Shog disagrees with me, but I'm still not convinced of his point.

The red herring is the notion that the Wiimote's technology is so new that devs don't know how to it properly. The technologies in the Wiimote (gyros, IR sensors, accelerometers) are NOT new. They have been used in games for YEARS (MS gyro Sidewinder dates back to 1998 or so, IR sensors been used in light guns for years, accelerometers been used in those cheapo sports game thingy for years).

 

[Deku]

The red herring is the notion that the Wiimote's technology is so new that devs don't know how to it properly. The technologies in the Wiimote (gyros, IR sensors, accelerometers) are NOT new. They have been used in games for YEARS (MS gyro Sidewinder dates back to 1998 or so, IR sensors been used in light guns for years, accelerometers been used in those cheapo sports game thingy for years).

Do developers actually have enough experience making games using these new control mechanisms? I mean most of the Wii games seem to control just fine so there's obviously some level of expertise already achieved. But on the topic of FPS games and complex controls, are you sure there's no way to move it forward?

I remember a time when no one could figure out how to make a game like golden eye work on the N64 and RARE/Acclaim figured it out and trail blazed the control scheme for analog FPS console games. Would you rule out a similar thing happening for an entirely new controller?

 

[Shmmeee]

How could this possibly be anything other than a software issue?

As I see it there are two ways to do FPS on Wii: use the wiimote like a mouse, where you tilt up down left right instead of moving; or use it like a light gun, where you use the sensor bar to point.

The first would work just like any PC FPS surely as it's more sensitive by all accounts and therefore could be tweaked to mouse levels. You would look with the wiimote and move with the stick, the aiming reticule would be stuck to the center of the screen.

The second would provide a totally different play experience, it would be more like Time Crisis with movement. You only aim on screen and move with the stick.

I think the problem comes from developers trying to mix the two with using the "light gun" to look as well as shoot. That's how MP:C works is it not?

Did Shog/Edwood play in expert mode? Was it better or worse to have a smaller dead zone? What are their thoughts on fixing the reticule to the center and downing the sensitivity to remove shakey hand camera?

 

[Shogmaster]

Do developers actually have enough experience making games using these new control mechanisms? I mean most of the Wii games seem to control just fine so there's obviously some level of expertise already achieved. But on the topic of FPS games and complex controls, are you sure there's no way to move it forward?

I just don't see how with the IR/sensor bar. It's definitely not ideal for FPSes. It's much better suited for point and click adventures and things like strategy games where a fast free moving cursor is needed.

I remember a time when no one could figure out how to make a game like golden eye work on the N64 and RARE/Acclaim figured it out and trail blazed the control scheme for analog FPS console games. Would you rule out a similar thing happening for an entirely new controller?

Turok did it before Golden Eye by my memories, and the only thing they fucked up with Turok controls was locking in inverse controls for the look camera. So I think your version of console FPS controls are a little tainted by passage of time.

 

[volmer]

I was not complaining about delays for sword play in Red Steel. I was complaining about the IR emitter/sensor bar combo being a really poor mechanism for look camera in FPSes. Wrong topic bud.

Hmm, I must have misunderstood you then. The direct-pointing-stuff in the controller seemed pretty damn precise to me, going by videos of the different demos that utilized it - I think it looks quite promising in fact, and I'm looking forward to seeing that coupled with the accelerometer data so that it doesn't "spazz out" as report when losing track of the sensorbar for a moment.

No amount of middleware will fix the fact that for FPSes, Wiimote is broken.

Sounds like a software issue to me... If it's really broken as you say then Nintendo isn't getting my money. I really doubt that's the case, however.

 

[volmer]

I just don't see how with the IR/sensor bar. It's definitely not ideal for FPSes. It's much better suited for point and click adventures and things like strategy games where a fast free moving cursor is needed.

I saw this post somewhere (gamespot maybe) from someone who had played MP3 with the controller. What he said that the pointer was great for hitting stuff within the current view, but that turning was what made it feel sluggish because of the slow turning speed and the fact that you had to place the cursor very near the edge of the screen to start turning in the first place.

If you look at the newer Zelda:TP videos of the wii-controlled bow you can see that there's a small oval/circle in the center where the view is stale, and as soon as the cursor leaves this middle area the view starts turning around with a speed that is relative to the cursor's distance from the center of the screen.

I think the above is a good indication that there are many ways to implement FPS-controls with the wiimote. I don't think you should write them off just yet just because they haven't given you the one you prefer at their first public showing...

 

[Shogmaster]

How could this possibly be anything other than a software issue?

How could you possibly know that not having experienced the thing at all?

As I see it there are two ways to do FPS on Wii: use the wiimote like a mouse, where you tilt up down left right instead of moving; or use it like a light gun, where you use the sensor bar to point.

That statement tells me you have no clue how the Wiimote works. Sensor bar is a line of sight device. If you tilt the Wiimote to effect the gyros, you will likely knock the IR emitter out of sensor bar's field of vision. And no, the nunchuck does not have a gyro inside.

The first would work just like any PC FPS surely as it's more sensitive by all accounts and therefore could be tweaked to mouse levels. You would look with the wiimote and move with the stick, the aiming reticule would be stuck to the center of the screen.

That's not the problem. The problem is, there is no auto centering built in to the Wiimote (obviously since it's free hand held pointer). So it's not the problem of sensitivity, but really about being too sensitive for 1:1 direct controls, and not feasable for mouse like free roaming controls since it's a line of sight device.

The second would provide a totally different play experience, it would be more like Time Crisis with movement. You only aim on screen and move with the stick.

That's what MP3 and Red Steel now does. And that's why moving the camera is so damn slow since you have to drag the cursor to the edge of the screen and "push" the camera along.

I think the problem comes from developers trying to mix the two with using the "light gun" to look as well as shoot. That's how MP:C works is it not?

No. It's does NOT work like a light gun in the sense you can point directly to the pixel representing the enemy on the screen with the IR emitter. You point the IR emitter to the sensor bar which then translates the movement and then scales it to the screen.

Did Shog/Edwood play in expert mode? Was it better or worse to have a smaller dead zone?

All expert mode ended up doing in MP3 was crank the cursor speed. All it did was make aiming more jittery.

What are their thoughts on fixing the reticule to the center and downing the sensitivity to remove shakey hand camera?

With the IR, you can't fix the reticule to the center of the screen since the users would have to auto center the Wiimote themselves manually. That would be a horrible look camera control mechanism since every hand shake and tremeble would do the same to the camera and the game engine would not be able to keep up with drastic movements, not to mention the fore mentioned centering problem.

I saw this post somewhere (gamespot maybe) from someone who had played MP3 with the controller. What he said that the pointer was great for hitting stuff within the current view, but that turning was what made it feel sluggish because of the slow turning speed and the fact that you had to place the cursor very near the edge of the screen to start turning in the first place.

If you look at the newer Zelda:TP videos of the wii-controlled bow you can see that there's a small oval/circle in the center where the view is stale, and as soon as the cursor leaves this middle area the view starts turning around with a speed that is relative to the cursor's distance from the center of the screen.

I think the above is a good indication that there are many ways to implement FPS-controls with the wiimote. I don't think you should write them off just yet just because they haven't given you the one you prefer at their first public showing...

Then you give up the speed advantage of the free hand held pointer, and end up with just a poor emulation of the analog stick. This is why most editors stated that they will be getting the GC version of Zelda instead Wii version.

 

[jarosh]

it will never stop, right?
yeah. it will never stop

 

[volmer]

it will never stop, right?
yeah. it will never stop

I'll stop to set an example.

 

[Scrow]

it will never stop, right?
yeah. it will never stop

This is the song that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friend. Some people started singing it, not knowing what it was, and they'll continue singing it forever just because...

This is the song that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friend. Some people started singing it, not knowing what it was, and they'll continue singing it forever just because...

(go to line 1)

 

[Edwood]

Did Shog/Edwood play in expert mode? Was it better or worse to have a smaller dead zone? What are their thoughts on fixing the reticule to the center and downing the sensitivity to remove shakey hand camera?

I already said I tried "expert" mode. You can tell by looking at the cursor if you are in "expert" mode. It looks like you are playing on meth. While it reduced the amount of loss of calibration, it still happened.

The only way I can see the Wii-mote working well for FPS games is a toggle between fixing the cursor in the center of the screen, and having a free roaming cursor as it already is in MP3. Basically like Left Trigger GRAW style aiming.

Purely using the Gyro without the IR would be useless. I have a Gyration Gryo mouse, and have tried to play FPS games with it, and it does not work well. Gets very tiring to use as well.

 

[The Friendly Monster]

And no, the nunchuck does not have a gyro inside.

Yes it does.

 

[Shmmeee]

I already said I tried "expert" mode. You can tell by looking at the cursor if you are in "expert" mode. It looks like you are playing on meth. While it reduced the amount of loss of calibration, it still happened.

The only way I can see the Wii-mote working well for FPS games is a toggle between fixing the cursor in the center of the screen, and having a free roaming cursor as it already is in MP3. Basically like Left Trigger GRAW style aiming.

Purely using the Gyro without the IR would be useless. I have a Gyration Gryo mouse, and have tried to play FPS games with it, and it does not work well. Gets very tiring to use as well.

Right, I'm missing something somewhere. What exactly does the sensor bar do? Make it more accurate than gyro only?

Does the wiimote emit an IR signal that's picked up by various sensors along the bar? How does it work?

 

[jarosh]

Right, I'm missing something somewhere. What exactly does the sensor bar do? Make it more accurate than gyro only?

Does the wiimote emit an IR signal that's picked up by various sensors along the bar? How does it work?

gyros have nothing to do with position tracking. gyros work seperately from the sensor bar, they sense tilting. the sensor is supposed to track the remote in 3d space.

 

[Shmmeee]

gyros have nothing to do with position tracking. gyros work seperately from the sensor bar, they sense tilting. the sensor is supposed to track the remote in 3d space.

OK, so how does pointing work? If you are simply moving a cursor why do you need to know the position of the wiimote? Surely you only need to know that it's been swung left or right or tilted up or down, which gyros could register.

Maybe I'm being dense but I don't see why you'd need the sensor bar for anything that doesn't rely on tracking the position of the wiimote, or why you'd need to track the wiimote for FPS aiming.

 

[jarosh]

OK, so how does pointing work? If you are simply moving a cursor why do you need to know the position of the wiimote? Surely you only need to know that it's been swung left or right or tilted up or down, which gyros could register.

Maybe I'm being dense but I don't see why you'd need the sensor bar for anything that doesn't rely on tracking the position of the wiimote, or why you'd need to track the wiimote for FPS aiming.

look, that wouldn't make sense at ALL. imagine you're playing metroid prime hunters but instead of using the touch screen for aiming you would tilt the ds like in wario ware twisted to move an on screen crosshair. sounds neither accurate nor intuitive, right? right? imagine you would have to TILT your mouse left or right to move the pointer. that'd be a little awkard. it would probably be even clumsier than using a joystick for aiming.

edit: the pointing works JUST LIKE a laser pointer. i bet you've never heard that one before. it's like a touch screen where you are constantly touching the screen (uhm, yeah).

 

[Shmmeee]

look, that wouldn't make sense at ALL. imagine you're playing metroid prime hunters but instead of using the touch screen for aiming you would tilt the ds like in wario ware twisted to move an on screen crosshair. sounds neither accurate nor intuitive, right? right? imagine you would have to TILT your mouse left or right to move the pointer. that'd be a little awkard. it would probably be even clumsier than using a joystick for aiming.

edit: the pointing works JUST LIKE a laser pointer. i bet you've never heard that one before. it's like a touch screen where you are constantly touching the screen (uhm, yeah).

I think you misunderstand.

Are you saying you move the wiimote through space so rather than just tilting your wrist you move your entire arm left or right? If that's not what you're saying then you don't understand what I mean.

Let me use some ascii art to try and explain. If you are pointing at the centre of the screen the wiimote looks like this: (ignore these "~" you can't do white space in posts by the looks of it)

(All top down view)

--------------------- <--screen


~~~~~~| <--wiimote

If you aim for the left side it looks like this:

--------------------


~~~~~~ \

The right side:

---------------------


~~~~~~ /

Yes?
The remote itself doesn't move through 3D space it stays in one position and is tilted. What you are saying is it works like this:

CENTER:
--------------------


~~~~~|

LEFT:
--------------------


~|

RIGHT:
--------------------


~~~~~~~~~|

That makes no sense. You'd have to actually move from side to side to move the cursor.

 

[jarosh]

aaagh. no, that's not what i'm saying at all. i'm not sure what's so hard to understand. but sorry dude, i really don't have the patience for this. i'm sure you can get all the information you need somewhere else. we're in the internet, remember. ign, gamespot, 1up, whatever.

 

[Shmmeee]

aaagh. no, that's not what i'm saying at all. i'm not sure what's so hard to understand. but sorry dude, i really don't have the patience for this. i'm sure you can get all the information you need somewhere else. we're in the internet, remember. ign, gamespot, 1up, whatever.

I really don't think you get what I'm saying, but never mind.

You saying "It works like a laser pointer LOLZ" is no better than saying "It works by magic".

Having read all that has been written by IGN et. al. and various technical websites, I am still none the wiser as to how it actually works. i.e. the technology inside the damn thing.

All signs previously pointed to the rotation being sensed by the remote and the translation being sensed by the bar. If the bar is needed for aiming that cannot be right as you would not need to know it's position, only rotation.

I can't make it any simpler than that.

EDIT:

The Duck Hunt demo comes to mind as a counterexample.

As would the fact that Pixart's technology is called Multiple Object Tracking...

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

In those mutiplayer games, you don't use Wiimote's IR capability. MP3 can't be played from one Wii with only one sensor bar AFAIK.

The Duck Hunt demo comes to mind as a counterexample.

 

[jarosh]

if all you got from my posts is "It works like a laser pointer LOLZ" then that's really unfortunate. but clearly i made an honest attempt to explain it.

 

[Shmmeee]

listen man, i made an honest attempt to explain it and apparently i failed. but if all you got from my posts is "It works like a laser pointer LOLZ" then i'm sorry. but it's not entirely my fault then.

Sorry, the whole "we're on the Internet" got to me a bit.

I'm just trying to figure out how the damn thing works. I thought I knew but I couldn't understand why you would need to know the position of the wiimote unless you were doing light gun style aiming at the screen.

Shog says that you don't aim at the screen, you aim at the sensor bar, which seems crazy to me. I mean you might as well be moving a cursor as much as aiming at anything. If you are just moving a cursor then you only need to know rotation of the remote (hence my crappy ascii art )

I didn't mean to offend, but it felt like I was being completely misunderstood, which to be fair has as much to do with my writing ability as it does your reading ability.

I guess all will be revealed after it launches, but I just can't wrap my head around that sensor bar's technology. Pixart, who make it, work with imaging, which would imply there's camera's in there maybe tracking an infrared light on the remote.

Tell you what I'll stop trying to explain what I mean.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

Note that this is all from someone who's just read about the thing, and not used it.

Shog says that you don't aim at the screen, you aim at the sensor bar, which seems crazy to me. I mean you might as well be moving a cursor as much as aiming at anything. If you are just moving a cursor then you only need to know rotation of the remote (hence my crappy ascii art )

The remote and sensor bar work in tandem to produce the pointer/cursor effect. To actually directly point at something on screen, and have that be where the virtual cursor is, requires calibration. I imagine that before calibration, pointing directly at the center of the sensor bar would give you the default center point. From there you would change wrist tilt to point in the various directions.

I guess all will be revealed after it launches, but I just can't wrap my head around that sensor bar's technology. Pixart, who make it, work with imaging, which would imply there's camera's in there maybe tracking an infrared light on the remote.

I'm not sure what the original source of this is, but in the Wii accelerometer details thread, shortly after the PixArt press release PkunkFury said "and we've heard that the CMOS sensors are actually in the remote and not in the sensor bar from people on the show floor." If that's the case, it's the remote detecting the sensor bar, and not vice-versa.

 

[The Friendly Monster]

My theory.

The optical sensor is in the remote, the "sensor bar" has a visible IR light at each end.

Ok so the optical sensor can nail 4 degrees of freedom, limiting it's possible position and orientation to being on a sphere (think about it....hint; the centre of the sphere is not the centre of the sensor bar) with the orientation being different at each point on the sphere. Therefore by using the tilt sensors (2 degrees of freedom) it can calculate where on the sphere it lies, double checking with the accelerometers (another 4 degrees of freedom). Ingenius, I wouldn't have thought of this and I'm very impressed Nintendo has got this pointing device working as well as it seems to from the demos.

edit; It actually only tells it's exact position and orientation within a reflection...although that'd be through the other side of the TV. This problem can also be solved by making each end of the sensor bar "look" different, e.g. different wavelength.

Unfortunately this means that the remote can't accurately keep track of its location without being pointed at the sensor bar.

Although when I said sphere it's actually a torus but without a hole, The surface of revolution when you rotate a circle about an axis not through its centre but intersecting with the circle.

 

[Shmmeee]

The remote and sensor bar work in tandem to produce the pointer/cursor effect. To actually directly point at something on screen, and have that be where the virtual cursor is, requires calibration. I imagine that before calibration, pointing directly at the center of the sensor bar would give you the default center point. From there you would change wrist tilt to point in the various directions.

Unless I'm reading you wrong (and it wouldn't be the first time ) this means it can work like a light gun if it's calibrated to the TV instead of the sensor bar. Which begs the question: Why were the demo booths calibrated to the sensor bar.

I'm not sure what the original source of this is, but in the Wii accelerometer details thread, shortly after the PixArt press release PkunkFury said "and we've heard that the CMOS sensors are actually in the remote and not in the sensor bar from people on the show floor." If that's the case, it's the remote detecting the sensor bar, and not vice-versa.

I missed that thread, that makes a lot more sense. I'm still not sure how it does 3D tracking though, as from all the reports I've see the sensor bar has two sensors (or emitters) which I would assume isn't enough. I'll have to wait for the imaging expert to come into the office tomorrow and quiz him.

This fascinates me, sorry if it doesn't anyone else

EDIT: Didn't see this

Ok so the optical sensor can nail 4 degrees of freedom, limiting it's possible position and orientation to being on a sphere (think about it....hint; the centre of the sphere is not the centre of the sensor bar) with the orientation being different at each point on the sphere. Therefore by using the tilt sensors (2 degrees of freedom) it can calculate where on the sphere it lies, double checking with the accelerometers (another 4 degrees of freedom). Ingenius, I wouldn't have thought of this and I'm very impressed Nintendo has got this pointing device working as well as it seems to from the demos.

edit; It actually only tells it's exact position and orientation within a reflection...although that'd be through the other side of the TV. This problem can also be solved by making each end of the sensor bar "look" different, e.g. different wavelength.

Unfortunately this means that the remote can't accurately keep track of its location without being pointed at the sensor bar.

I can understand the optical sensor telling left and right through the distance between the two points on the bar. How would it tell up and down though? Or distance from the bar?

Also, how does the baseball game work? The IR sensor on the wiimote must be pointing towards the ceiling as you start your swing.

Just thinking about the maths involved in calculating the swing is mind boggling. Maybe a physics card isn't out of the question, there's got to be some serious maths going on just to work out what the remote's doing.

 

[The Friendly Monster]

I can understand the optical sensor telling left and right through the distance between the two points on the bar. How would it tell up and down though? Or distance from the bar?

Also, how does the baseball game work? The IR sensor on the wiimote must be pointing towards the ceiling as you start your swing.

Just thinking about the maths involved in calculating the swing is mind boggling. Maybe a physics card isn't out of the question, there's got to be some serious maths going on just to work out what the remote's doing.

Basically I think the remote will see an image of where the 2 sensor bar ends are.

Ok I've just noticed a flaw in my theory. The remote would give the same feedback if it were directly in front of the sensor or at an angle on the same horizontal plane such that the sensor bar appeared the same size...

Fucked if I know how it works.

edit...ewww just had a thought that perhaps it doesnt differentiate between these two, and assumes youll be pretty much straight in front of the TV anyway. That'd be an ugly solution. And very undesirable for me since I have a projector and have to sit to the side slightly.

 

[John Harker]

I'd chime in here, but everytime I've addressed something one of these guys have said, they both completly ignored me, so....

 

[DDayton]

The optical sensor is in the remote, the "sensor bar" has a visible IR light at each end.

That would make sense, as the videos we took at e3 show bright lights emitting from the sensor bars.

 

[ghostlyjoe]

Jesus. What happened to this thread?

I've got a question, if anyone cares to answer. What the fuck does circle strafing have to do with intuitive controls?? Circle strafing is an advanced FPS tactic not because of its inherent realism but because of the conventional control scheme. Circle strafing is a product of Mouse/KB. Is someone going to argue that circle strafing is an important component of battlefield strategy? Do you think soldiers in the field just run around in circles like 10 year olds and, thus, gain the upper hand? No, because in real life it's quite simple to turn and fire at a moving object. Not so in a game world.

We are talking about a convention here. We are talkiing about the limitations, actually, of Keyboard/Mouse and dual-analog control schemes and how those limitations lead to specific tactics. Circle strafing is one of those tactics -- a means of gaining an in-game advantage by exploliting the limitations of the conrol scheme. It's doomed to disappear if and when controls actually progress.

See, the trolls in this thread are making valid points, but from a crippled point of view. They are clinging to "hardcore FPS controls" without acknowledging that "hardcore FPS controls" are an anachronism, and if the Wiimote works as intuitively as many impressions indicate, then it's destined to marginalize the so-called "hardcore." And it's also destined to expose their precious "tactics" as merely exploiting interface limitations.

It will likely take much trial-and-error and some clever programming to make the Wiimote truly sing, but if your major criticism is that you can't circle-strafe with it, then you're just missing the whole fucking point altogether.