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Nintendo E3 2006 Conference Thread (start at reply ~#1300)
- Thread starter Amir0x
- Start date
ghostlyjoe said:
I agree with you on this to a certain extent but i can see where the other guys are coming from.
I understand the feeling of wanting to circle strafe and being used to that kind of gameplay, but i'm starting to get excited about the possibility of new kinds of tactics in online FPS. An online game with this kind of control scheme will be totally different than previous games and in some ways it will be more realistic.
Here's the thing, the inability to circle strafe doesn't make this method weaker than other methods. You lose certain tactics, and hopefully you will gain others. You can aim around the screen with this method much better than you can with a mouse. that means that if i'm good, i should be able to cap 5 people in the head, very quickly, without even turning. But it will take skill and a steady hand. Use of cover will become more important, because everybody will be able to aim very quickly. It should add a nice coat of realism to every FPS that's made for it.
Also, i wouldn't call the naysayers trolls.. they played it, and didn't like it... that's their perogative and i'm very interested in the different opinions of people who played these games since i wasn't there. You can expect many hardcore fpsers having a hard time getting used to this method. I think red steel will end up being a better example of this kind of gameplay when it's finished than Mp3. I have faith that ubisoft will release a polished game despite it's current state and it should be a more traditional shooter rather than an adventure game like metroid prime.. hopefully it will also have a fun competitive online mode.
ghostlyjoe
Member
Edwood said:
Interesting response. In 10 years, "Circle-strafing God" will be the equivalent of "Master of the Abacus."
Can't you see how incongruous it is to demand superior controls and then define them by the ability to circle strafe?
ghostlyjoe
Member
\Krowley said:
That's a really nice post.
I haven't played the games, and I respect their right to form an opinion. I also respect that they have hands-on experience and I don't. But their arguments are weak, and they're tone is condescending. That's why I called them trolls.
ghostlyjoe
Member
Edwood said:
So you admit that you're a kettle?
Besides, I wish you'd actually address my points, rather than post backward insults. You obviously disagree with my assessment of circle strafing and FPS controls. Why?
I can't sit here and say that the Wiimote is the evolution of FPS. I haven't used the thing. I can only speak theoretically. But you've multiple posts in this thread singling out circle-strafing as a major flaw, and I disagree on a theoretical basis. If you care to challenge my points, please do so. That is the purpose of debate, after all.
ghostlyjoe said:
I admit nothing!
Didn't you see my eraser phrase, after my insult?
How can I argue theoretically with you? I might as well bash my head into the wall. It's best to experience the Wii for yourself to come to a real opinion.
But in the interest of academics, let's first nail down the issue of circle strafing. Of course circle strafing is not a real military tactic, and neither is morphing into a ball and rolling around shitting bombs. The Wii-mote can be used for circle strafing, but not in how it was used in the MP3 demo at E3. I actually have less problems with the lack of proper circle strafing abilities than the gimped way of looking around in MP3. you have to move the cursor to the edges of the screen to look around, which makes turning around very slow compared to even dual stick control method. And yes, it's still slower in "expert" mode.
Circle strafing can easily be addressed by having a function of toggling between looking (locking crosshairs in the center), and aiming (free moving crosshairs).
Slow turning can be addressed by being able to jack up sensitivity of the Wii-mote even more (ultra "expert" mode), but would make aiming very difficult. As moving gets really jittery. You have to have a very steady hand.
ghostlyjoe
Member
Edwood said:I admit nothing!
Didn't you see my eraser phrase, after my insult?
How can I argue theoretically with you? I might as well bash my head into the wall. It's best to experience the Wii for yourself to come to a real opinion.
But in the interest of academics, let's first nail down the issue of circle strafing. Of course circle strafing is not a real military tactic, and neither is morphing into a ball and rolling around shitting bombs. The Wii-mote can be used for circle strafing, but not in how it was used in the MP3 demo at E3. I actually have less problems with the lack of proper circle strafing abilities than the gimped way of looking around in MP3. you have to move the cursor to the edges of the screen to look around, which makes turning around very slow compared to even dual stick control method. And yes, it's still slower in "expert" mode.
Circle strafing can easily be addressed by having a function of toggling between looking (locking crosshairs in the center), and aiming (free moving crosshairs).
Slow turning can be addressed by being able to jack up sensitivity of the Wii-mote even more (ultra "expert" mode), but would make aiming very difficult. As moving gets really jittery. You have to have a very steady hand.
That's more like it. Anyway, those sound like fair criticisms, but they don't really indict the hardware. Some will argue -- and have argued in this thread -- that "jittery" is a realistic effect and that aming would be a more refined skill in Wii FPS games. I'm not sure if I wholly buy that. I'm more interested in the games being enjoyable than ultra-realisitic. But I'm really curious about the precision of the controls, and as such I find the contrast you've drawn between aiming and turning quite intereting.
If I'm reading correctly, what you're saying is that those two distinct actions require two distinct levels of sensitivity to perform each optimally. That makes sense. You seem to imply, though, that the hardware is adaquately sensitive and scalable, which lays to rest many of my personal fears about the Wii.
Do you believe the Wii contains the potential to progress FPS controls? Of the three interfaces in question, the Wii is the most accureate representation of the real action of firing a gun -- at least on the theoretical level. I'm still not sure I fully understand how your software complaints lead you to dismiss the Wiimote's FPS potential. You even offer a software-based solution for the problems you outlined. What about your experience indicates that the Wiimote falls short in terms of hardware?
is the wii remote easy to pick up? what was the learning curve in terms of actually controlling most games?
my brother is handicapped and he currently owns a ps2. he plays it a lot but its hard for him to learn how to control games and it takes him a very long time to just pass 1 level. id say typical controllers have steep learning curves especially for someone handicapped.
hes not quick, his coordination is not good but im wondering if he can still use the wii? he wanted a ps3 but its too much money, and i think the wii might be better for him anyway.
my brother is handicapped and he currently owns a ps2. he plays it a lot but its hard for him to learn how to control games and it takes him a very long time to just pass 1 level. id say typical controllers have steep learning curves especially for someone handicapped.
hes not quick, his coordination is not good but im wondering if he can still use the wii? he wanted a ps3 but its too much money, and i think the wii might be better for him anyway.
Pope Benedict XVI
Member
Joe said:
Well, not that i've actually tried it, but i'd suppose it'll depend on the game. The Wii Sports game looks very simple and intuitive. Some other things seem to be surprisingly complicated, like zelda for instance.
John Harker
Definitely doesn't make things up as he goes along.
There is a big learning curve.
I don't know how Nintendo can claim this thing is going to make everything in the world incredible simple.
I can say for a few games I had to take a minute or two just to adjust to getting started. Some games, like Tony Hawk, it took me 2 days to win a race, heh.
However, games like Wii Tennis and Wii Baseball and Wii Airplane are incredible intuitive.
But mainly, because control is so limited. I mean, you can't move in those games. All you can DO is swing. So in that sense, yes, its incredibly easy and completley natural. And a total blast to play.
But on the same token, games like Red Steel and Zelda, I mean, as gamers, we're just SO USED to playing it a certain way. Even with our hands just inches apart - just having my hands a solid foot apart took a moment to adjust to. But thats how I'm used to gaming, ya know? It could be totally different for someone who doesn't feel completely comfortable with a dualshock or something. So yea, it depends on the game and your level of familitarity.
I can say, it didn't make Zelda easier. And I beat the whole demo. It was more difficult sometimes, I felt, to go from shooting your bow to attacking to backflipping to aiming your arrow - but after a few minutes, you get used to it. Maybe a bit longer than normal - but don't let that confuse anyone, its INCREDIBLY comfortable and natural to hold. So physically using it is easy, but getting over the initial resistance your hands and mind have from being separated doesn't make things simplier for the player.
I don't know how Nintendo can claim this thing is going to make everything in the world incredible simple.
I can say for a few games I had to take a minute or two just to adjust to getting started. Some games, like Tony Hawk, it took me 2 days to win a race, heh.
However, games like Wii Tennis and Wii Baseball and Wii Airplane are incredible intuitive.
But mainly, because control is so limited. I mean, you can't move in those games. All you can DO is swing. So in that sense, yes, its incredibly easy and completley natural. And a total blast to play.
But on the same token, games like Red Steel and Zelda, I mean, as gamers, we're just SO USED to playing it a certain way. Even with our hands just inches apart - just having my hands a solid foot apart took a moment to adjust to. But thats how I'm used to gaming, ya know? It could be totally different for someone who doesn't feel completely comfortable with a dualshock or something. So yea, it depends on the game and your level of familitarity.
I can say, it didn't make Zelda easier. And I beat the whole demo. It was more difficult sometimes, I felt, to go from shooting your bow to attacking to backflipping to aiming your arrow - but after a few minutes, you get used to it. Maybe a bit longer than normal - but don't let that confuse anyone, its INCREDIBLY comfortable and natural to hold. So physically using it is easy, but getting over the initial resistance your hands and mind have from being separated doesn't make things simplier for the player.
Pedigree Chum
Banned
What Ubi needs to do for Red Steel's aiming to be intuitive is this:
1) make a certain amount of real estate in the middle of the screen a "dead zone" that you can aim around in without moving the camera.
2) Make it so that aiming in any other part of the screen will move the camera around.
This is what Lost Planet does and its absolutely fantastic. It would adapt well to Red Steel or just about any FPS on Wii.
1) make a certain amount of real estate in the middle of the screen a "dead zone" that you can aim around in without moving the camera.
2) Make it so that aiming in any other part of the screen will move the camera around.
This is what Lost Planet does and its absolutely fantastic. It would adapt well to Red Steel or just about any FPS on Wii.
Avutta1978
Member
John Harker said:
if you beat the whole demo in zelda, then i would say the controls setup makes it easier, for the fact that zeld ais a game that gradually builds and teaches and shows you new items. you were thrown in with a bow and arrow and were able to use it without much practice.
Avutta1978
Member
you got that right. should work well for the wii.Pedigree Chum said:
Pedigree Chum said:
I agree. In fact i think it must have worked this way in the shooting demo people played before e3. that's the way game informer describes it, and Chris kohler has impressions on the game from that time and he made it sound like it was the next coming of quake... He was really impressed with it. Perhaps the e3 version was a less stable newer build with simplified aiming for the masses.
I really think red steel will end up being very good. I'm not a huge fan of ubi's games this gen, but i can't deny that they are highly polished. Red steel sounds like a mess at the moment, and ubi won't release a mess like that. I still love the concepts behind the game, i love the visual style and i think it will be a more conventional FPS game than metroid prime.
Trying to simulate traditional controls with the Wiimote is not the way to go IMHO. If you wanted to do this, you could as well stick to PC gaming. I'd more like to simulate the feel of being a real person, and less the free floating armed camera you usually do. Which means:
a) Aiming needs a steady hand, in RL you're aim is even way off after you've shot.
b) You turn with your feet, you look around / aim with your head
c) Strafing means you're looking in a different direction than you're running
I can see possiblities to pull that off with the Wiimote, basically using the nunchuck to run and turn and using the remote to aim. And a center-locked cursor or not doesn't really make a difference to the concept. I'd like to try this as opposed to the solution MP3 and Red Steel chose.
Jittering: Is there any problem with solving this thing by software? Just add a steady-cam-like smoothing with a very tight range.
It's quite natural that hardcore FPS players are having a hard time I think. I guess every PC shooters controls quite the same. It's hard to enjoy a different scheme from that you're used to for so long and "owned" other players with. In essence whatever it controls like, a shooter remains hard to learn because you must do different things with both your hands at the same time and obviously you can't use your real feet.
All I can assume now is that in MP3 all those parameters aren't set to ideal values. I guess for suckers like me it'll suffice. Hoping for some hardware polishing, too.
Saw one post from Shogmaster mentioning adventure titles. I really want those! But the DS is ideal for adventures, too, and so far there's only Trace Memory and Hotel Dusk, both from the same developer. RTS games also have been neglected. Wii has huge potential there, I hope it's utilized sooner or later.
a) Aiming needs a steady hand, in RL you're aim is even way off after you've shot.
b) You turn with your feet, you look around / aim with your head
c) Strafing means you're looking in a different direction than you're running
I can see possiblities to pull that off with the Wiimote, basically using the nunchuck to run and turn and using the remote to aim. And a center-locked cursor or not doesn't really make a difference to the concept. I'd like to try this as opposed to the solution MP3 and Red Steel chose.
Jittering: Is there any problem with solving this thing by software? Just add a steady-cam-like smoothing with a very tight range.
It's quite natural that hardcore FPS players are having a hard time I think. I guess every PC shooters controls quite the same. It's hard to enjoy a different scheme from that you're used to for so long and "owned" other players with. In essence whatever it controls like, a shooter remains hard to learn because you must do different things with both your hands at the same time and obviously you can't use your real feet.
Why is this slow(er)? Pointing to the edge of the screen can't be it. Or do you lose the cursor if you flick your wrist too fast? Beyond the edge it's up to the software which turning speed is applied, so no problem here. Or is the pointing range not wide enough? <- That must be it. When pointing off-screen there is perhaps not enough range left to control turning speed well.Edwood said:
All I can assume now is that in MP3 all those parameters aren't set to ideal values. I guess for suckers like me it'll suffice. Hoping for some hardware polishing, too.
Saw one post from Shogmaster mentioning adventure titles. I really want those! But the DS is ideal for adventures, too, and so far there's only Trace Memory and Hotel Dusk, both from the same developer.
RTS games also have been neglected. Wii has huge potential there, I hope it's utilized sooner or later.Avutta1978 said:
If I'm not mistaken, isn't that essentially what Red Steel and (the expert mode of) Metroid did? Not being at E3 myself, I'm not in much of a position to comment, but it seems to me that the problem was that once you move out of the deadzone, you start turning at a steady speed, regardless of how far out of the deadzone you are. The logical solution would be to allow the user to configure how large a deadzone they want (beginners would have a big deadzone, experienced players a smaller one), and to base turning speed on how far out of the deadzone they are. Pointing just off the edge of the deadzone would see you turn very slowly in whichever direction, while pointing the whole way to the side (or off the edge of) the screen would cause you to turn at the high speed neccessary to pull off in-air 180 degree turns and soforth. As the size of the deadzone would be user-configured, and the area immediately around it causing very slow turning, there should be practically zero jittering if you've got things set up right, but still the ability for very quick and precise control.
In essence this is the same method MP3 is using with the difference that the dead zone is the whole screen there. There must be some thought put into determining the size of the dead zone to reach the sweet spot, also one of the many parameters I came across when thinking about the topic. It would be nice if many of them were customizable. I think it's fun to play around with them.Pedigree Chum said:
John Harker
Definitely doesn't make things up as he goes along.
Avutta1978 said:
:lol what are you talking about, wouldnt I know since I was the one playing?
Avutta1978
Member
i meant that a game like zelda, you don't just start of at the beginging with a bow and arrow, the game is a learning process all the way and by the tim eyou get all your equipment, it woul dbe natiral to use it the way you are intended to. so you jumping into a stage at E3 and being able to use it as it was intened in your 10min demo, seems to suggest that the controls are intuitive and can be grasp easilyJohn Harker said:
Shogmaster
Member
JESUS FUCKING CHRIST. This thread is now a clusterfuck thanks you lack of understanding and misinformation about how Wiimote works. Give me few hours and I will try to put together some visual aids to explain how it works. Hopefully then, we can start discussing things on the same page.
ghostlyjoe said:
I haven't completely condemned the Wii-mote. I think there is potential there. It needs better utilization, examples at E3 were not enough.
As for the jittery thing, heheh, yeah, it's all due to the person holding the Wii-mote. The guy playing next to me on MP3 must've had 10 cups of coffee, his cursor/cross hairs were shaking like crazy.
That is exactly what the difference between regular and "expert" mode is in MP3. But having variable sensitivity would be something Nintendo should include, but they could also have it as an option in main menu of the console itself.
But I was referring to having toggle between two different control methods in game. If you have played GRAW, it's like the Left Trigger Aiming method.
I believe the Wii DOES contain the potential for the Biggest Cock Tease for hardcore console FPS players. Because if the Wii ends up having the best implementation of FPS controls, there is still the graphics complaint I have. Argue it either way, but for hardcore FPS gamers the graphics quality is a very important part of the FPS games.
At the least, MP3 was running at almost 60 frames all the time.
FWIW, I really do not like using dual analog sticks (XBox style) for FPS control. My personal favorite is Keyboard and the MonsterGecko PistolMouse FPS. But the online PC gaming experience sucks hard compared to XBox Live.
I don't like playing with myself.
But I sill still play with my Wii. I'll just skip most of the FPS games. There are plenty of other Nintendo games that may interest me.
-Ed
Avutta1978
Member
stop thinking highly of yourself shog, you are as good as you avutar.Shogmaster said:
Shogmaster
Member
Avutta1978 said:
I'm not thinking highly of myself. I just think lowly of you.
http://www.gamespot.com/pages/video_player/popup.php?sid=6150886&pid=&rgroup=e32006_live
Video of the sensor, few minutes in.
Video of the sensor, few minutes in.
Avutta1978
Member
awwww shogmaster i feel hurt :lol :lol :lol :lolShogmaster said:
JoshuaJSlone
Member
You really think so? For someone with speed and coordination trouble, a varied and fast-paced game like WarioWare sounds like a poor match to me.cvxfreak said:
Scalemail Ted
Member
Shogmaster said:
*This* is what Ive been asking for! 'Point and Click' adventures. Hell yeah, thats what I thought the wiimote would be great for! Make them do it Shogs! Make them bring back good entries in that genre. Damnit, its never gonna happen, but its good to hear that it would work well, as obvious as that may have seemed.
edit: They should do like a Wii Mystery series or something just to get the ball rolling.
BlueTsunami
there is joy in sucking dick
I love it when Shog takes a break from the PS3, its fun to watch :lol
SpoonyBard
Banned
yoopoo said:
So they have at least one Pikmin inside handling disc ejection already.
Scalemail Ted
Member
SpoonyBard said:
Not only that, with wiiconnect24, the pikminis are fed, recieve new orders, communicate with one another, and so much more. Also the mysterious tech of the controller works with pikminis in side the controller with tiny binoculars who watches their position and report back their intel to the main unit. Its all very complicated.
wonderfuldays
Member
yoopoo said:
I like the design that eject 2/3 disc out so you can take the disc from the middle hole.:lol
John Harker
Definitely doesn't make things up as he goes along.
Am I the only one who wants to keep it lying flat?
Why is it always laying vertical - what are they trying to prove? heh
I want to see more hot pictures of it horizontal.
Why is it always laying vertical - what are they trying to prove? heh
I want to see more hot pictures of it horizontal.
SpoonyBard
Banned
Well, I'm kind of scared of going vertical with Wii, because my PS2 stopped working after 18 months in that position. I turned it horizontal and it started to run games again.
fly high ~ayunite~
Member
I wonder what happens when you shove things into the slot other than CDs. (NO NOT THAT)
Cauliflower of Love
Banned
Aurora said:
why not?