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[geary]

Now with the release of Baldur's Gate 3, CRPG might got a lot of traction and listed below this article with 2 of the most popular rulesets (Pathfinder 2e vs DnD 5e: All Differences, Pros, and Cons Explained).

​

Pathfinder 2E! Where is it good and where does it suck?​

Pathfinder 2E was developed by Paizo Inc. and builds upon the legacy of its predecessor, the OG Pathfinder. While it might not have the brand recognition that Dungeons and Dragons enjoys, it’s still the go-to for many hardcore nerds. Let’s explore why.

Pros:

1. Customization: Pathfinder cements itself as the clear choice for many pro-nerds due to its extensive array of character customization options. The game offers a wide variety of classes and subclasses, far more than exist in DnD 5E. The game also delves deeper into character backgrounds with its extensive options of ancestries. Pathfinder also offers a plethora of sweet-ass feats for one’s character, an amount DnD cannot hope to rival. In short, the fine-tuned customization options present in Pathfinder allow players to tailor their characters to their own specific play style.
2. Tactical Combat: Pathfinder is all about that clever combat. The game offers more nuanced combat mechanics than DnD and provides detailed rules for character positioning, flanking, cover, and other combat maneuvers. If DnD’s combat is regular chess, Pathfinder’s combat is 3D chess. Far more cerebral, and therefore more rewarding for big-brained strategists who enjoy highly tactical gameplay.
3. Character Progression: The character progression system in Pathfinder is rich and satisfying, and the game offers a wide variety of feats, abilities, and spells to characters as they level up. While DnD can also boast of a satisfying leveling system, Pathfinder’s added complexity allows players to grow their characters exactly how they want to. DnD meanwhile puts your character more or less on a track. A very COOL track, but a track nonetheless.

Cons:

1. Learning Curve: Warning: this game is for SMART people. Or really DEDICATED people of average intellectual capability. Pathfinder has a steep learning curve, and newbies may find themselves daunted by the tome of a rulebook and all the complicated information therein. It’s not quite as “pick up and play” as Dungeons and Dragons is, and unless you’ve got a lot of time to study the rules, it might not be worth it.
2. Complexity: The sheer amount of rules in this game may overload your brain, which will cause gameplay to slow down. Help! Your character is falling off a cliff! Wait … how many dice do you need to roll for that? What are your proficiency bonuses? What are all these numbers? If you’re like me and your ADHD brain kicks into overdrive during drawn-out DnD 5E encounters, Pathfinder is gonna be even more of a struggle for concentration.

DnD 5E! What do we love and hate?​

Pros:

1. Accessibility: Big winner right here. DnD 5E is perhaps the most accessible tabletop role-playing game in history. You wanna bring your newbie friend into the DnD fold? Easy! This version was MADE for newcomers to feel comfortable, and the rules are straightforward and easy to understand. After an hour of setting up a character with the DM, your friend will be able to jump right into the action!
2. Streamlined Mechanics: The rules of DnD 5E focus on flexibility and simplicity. Actions that would require multiple dice rolls and rulebook checks in Pathfinder are simplified to one simple roll. The gameplay is fast-paced, allowing the game to place the spotlight on the narrative and role-playing aspects of the game (i.e. the best part). 5E’s simplicity allows newbies and veterans alike to get lost in the game, without having to worry about a learning curve or complicated rules.
3. Popularity and Community: D&D 5E is perhaps the most popular role-playing game of all time. Everyone has heard of it, and therefore the game can boast of a massive player base and a rich community. This popularity means that new players will have an abundant amount of resources for starting a game. There are prewritten adventures, rule supplements, and scores of online communities to help answer any question. In fact, DnD is so popular that there are whole Reddit communities dedicated to helping players join games entirely online!

Cons:

1. Limited Customization: Compared to Pathfinder 2e, D&D 5E has fewer options to offer for character customization. The streamlined approach that 5E takes means that the game’s classes and subclasses are much broader in nature, which may limit players’ ability to create super-specific character concepts. If you want to get your hands dirty with all the nitty gritty specifics, you will find the nit and grit of 5E to be lacking.
2. Simplified Combat: D&D 5E’s combat mechanics are simple in order to maximize accessibility. However, this means that they are lacking in comparison to Pathfinder’s tactical combat. The rules of DnD 5E prioritize quick and easy combat encounters, favoring narrative flow over tactical depth. While some players (myself included) may appreciate the streamlined approach that DnD takes, others may feel that the combat is oversimplified.

 

[KiteGr]

Wasteland 3, for not having rolls on skill checks.
If you have the skill, you've passed.

 

[IlGialloMondadori]

I’ll sidestep and say go for something other than two huge fantasy pen n paper rpgs.

Call of Cthulhu
Mothership
Delta Green
Alien
Star Trek Adventures

 

[shoplifter]

I'll just be over in the corner playing 1e/2e or Hackmaster

 

[Zathalus]

Neither, Pathfinder 1e is where its at.

 

[IlGialloMondadori]

This is a weird topic. Is it asking what my favourite crpgs are or my favourite pen n paper rpgs are? Both?

 

[Zheph]

Baldur's Gate 2

 

[IlGialloMondadori]

I'll just be over in the corner playing 1e/2e or Hackmaster

I don’t think I could play either of those again. I loved them in their day, and 2e brought a wealth of amazing settings.
Now, I think I’d rather something like Shadowdark or a basic knockoff like OSE.

 

[Hudo]

Out of the choices offered (in no order):

Baldur's Gate III
Fallout 2
Fallout
Arcanum
Planescape Torment

And I will seize the opportunity to say: Fuck real-time with pause.

 

[Doom85]

I'll just be over in the corner playing 1e/2e or Hackmaster

Never played Hackmaster, but I loved the Knights of the Dinner Table comic series where the characters played it. In fact, I made my first D&D character, Anna, a Dwarf Rogue primarily because I always loved Bob’s shenanigans when playing Knuckles.

 

[Skifi28]

SInce we're discussing this topic, how are the modern pathfinder videogames? I've been eyeing kingmaker and wrath of the righteous for a while now, but I hear they're not the easiest to get into, their difficulty is a bit all over the place and they're a tad on the buggy side. I've never been the biggest DnD-style afficionado, but I've finished many of them like Neverwinter Nights 1 & 2 or KOTOR 1 & 2. I wonder if I can rise to the challenge, or if it's even worth it. Of the two games, which is the better option?

 

[Zheph]

SInce we're discussing this topic, how are the modern pathfinder videogames? I've been eyeing kingmaker and wrath of the righteous for a while now, but I hear they're not the easiest to get into, their difficulty is a bit all over the place and they're a big on the buggy side. I've never been the biggest DnD-style afficionado, but I've finished many of them like Neverwinter Nights 1 & 2 or KOTOR 1 & 2. I wonder if I can rise to the challenge, or if it's even worth it. Of the two games, which is the better option?

The bugs have been corrected and the games are pretty good imo. I would recommend them and you can tune the difficulty quite a lot with a few settings if that's a blocker. They are fairly long tho and some systems might be annoying such as the crusades in wrath

 

[Skifi28]

The bugs have been corrected and the games are pretty good imo. I would recommend them and you can tune the difficulty quite a lot with a few settings if that's a blocker. They are fairly long tho and some systems might be annoying such as the crusades in wrath

Any preference between the two games?

 

[Zheph]

Any preference between the two games?

I enjoyed Wrath more a bit more epic on the story side

 

[geary]

Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous is a step up compare to Kingmaker. I would recommend the second. If you find, buy the definitive edition.

 

[MidGenRefresh]

Wasteland 3, for not having rolls on skill checks.
If you have the skill, you've passed.

Wasteland 3 should definitely be on that list.

 

[acidagfc]

DND 5e is probably the most casual-friendly system out there and well, it worked wonderfully. DND really spiked in popularity, not without the help from some great youtube DMs out there, but also on a merit of the system being so forgiving and welcoming for casual players.

Personally, I find tabletop DND5 to be TOO simple. With some classes (any non-magical melee essentially) you have almost nothing to do in most turns.

However, in a videogame format, where you have your whole party to juggle, it is much more involved.
Which makes BG3 a nearly perfect videogame adaptation. Yeah, some spells are nerfed to keep the balance in check (like polymorph only being usable as CC, but not as a buff), but the battle flow is just amazing, all while social resolutions are still possible.

Pathfinder is much more complex in tabletop and can feel too complex in a videogame (since again, now you are managing your entire party).

Pillars is a great spoof of DND. It's very similar, enough to feel at home, but also different enough to be fresh.

Overall - all systems are great, we just need more good games.

 

[AJUMP23]

Original Neverwinter games were a lot of fun, BG3 is a new standard, And Divinity was a ton of fun.

 

[LazyParrot]

Would be interesting to see how many of the people voting actually played more than five of these games.

 

[Fools idol]

Pathfinder wrath of the righteous is like a fine wine. It is impeccably crafted, but also requires the consumer have a certain taste.

Not everyone has the time nor patience to delve so deeply into a game with such vast and complex systems.

Baldurs gate 3 is the sweet spot because it has just the right amount of systems depth, before it requires work outside of the game to fully enjoy. So for me it's getting the vote.

I should be clear that I absolutely adore WotW and consider it the best cRPG of all time.

 

[Wildebeest]

The Owlcat Pathfinder games are 1e, a totally different ruleset to Pathfinder 2e.

A Pathfinder 2e CRPG might be interesting. Some things in its benefit are that it is a real level 1-20 system, in that it makes sense to have a campaign where you take a character from level 1 to 20 without it getting totally ridiculous. Another is that Pathfinder 2e is less confusing in working out what is a bonus action, what is a full action, why you can move with an action and move with a move and in what order, and so on. You just have three actions which you can use for anything.

A problem with Pathfinder 2e is that while character creation options might be expansive, the actual combat might feel a bit like it is too locked down in terms of what makes sense to do and might get boring.

 

[bbeach123]

I'm new to dnd and while I really like BG3 , I hate its armor system . Heavy armor , medium armor , light armor , doesnt matter , all evasion . Doenst help that a lots of 2H weapon class can chain like 3 hit in a row . You could get unlucky and get 1(3) shot .

Is it hard to add a flat or % damage reduction to this system ? Or will I get flamed by diehard dnd fan to death ?

 

[Doom85]

I'm new to dnd and while I really like BG3 , I hate its armor system . Heavy armor , medium armor , light armor , doesnt matter , all evasion . Doenst help that a lots of 2H weapon class can chain like 3 hit in a row . You could get unlucky and get 1(3) shot .

Is it hard to add a flat or damage reduction to this system ?

Some classes do at higher levels, Rogues can halve one regular attack’s damage and halve one area-of-effect attack’s damage each per round, and Monks can halve one regular attack’s damage per round. Also Barbarians‘ primary class feature is the Rage ability, one benefit while raging is pretty much all physical damage is halved. Clerics also have a reaction spell that undoes the double damage an enemy’s crit would do (so just the regular amount of damage).

Personally I prefer the AC system. I was so used to armor always being a damage reduction thing that something focused on dodging/deflecting attacks felt like a breath of fresh air.

 

[ResurrectedContrarian]

I haven't tried Pathfinder at all, but I despise everything about 5e and the modern era of RPGs. They've ruined the whole concept.

I prefer to play AD&D 1e, or B/X old school can also be excellent. My favorite video games in this genre are still the 2e classics like Pool of Radiance... I can't really get into the rest of the genre, certainly not any fusions of RPG with action gameplay.

I fear that 5e-era players don't even know what they're missing. D&D isn't supposed to be just amped up LARPing with dazzling feats, where everyone's a superhero in the story, and you add a few dice rolls against your attributes to see what happens at skill tests.

It's supposed to be a game where the dice shape the movements of the game world, with heavy use of random tables to ensure that the DM isn't writing a story at will, but is interpreting the unfolding of a world. The DM should know the regions, factions, and elements that players can encounter, but how those matters operate and come into play is the purpose of the dice, and the DM should read those like mysterious tea leaves in order to update their own knowledge about the direction things are taking.

Nothing is more mind-numbing than a set narrative that moves from set-piece to set-piece, where players are generally expected to triumph and become heroes. It should be a dangerous world, full of mystery and surprise, where death is real and no one is emotionally obsessed with their current character. Not to mention that writing idiotic backstories overshadows everything.

 

[shoplifter]

I don’t think I could play either of those again. I loved them in their day, and 2e brought a wealth of amazing settings.
Now, I think I’d rather something like Shadowdark or a basic knockoff like OSE.

I have little issue with b/x, and in fact I like it a lot but my loyalties lie with AD&D as far as what I'd want to run. I think Shadowdark is also fine, but I'm not completely sold on it, whereas an OD&D knockoff like Swords & Wizardry gets me going. I'm the guy that bought the entire line of Pathfinder 2e, ran it once, and swore I'd never do it again.

Since WotC took over, D&D has become a web of mechanical interactions and how to break them (shocking for the company that owns MTG) rather than the game I grew up with. Nothing against the people that enjoy that, but I'ma stay away.

edit: I will admit to the blasphemy of using ascending AC when I run 2e, it's mechanically identical, I can do it on the fly, and I don't have to explain THAC0 to my kids.

 

[Mercador]

Arcanum was incredible but it was difficult

 

[IlGialloMondadori]

I have little issue with b/x, and in fact I like it a lot but my loyalties lie with AD&D as far as what I'd want to run. I think Shadowdark is also fine, but I'm not completely sold on it, whereas an OD&D knockoff like Swords & Wizardry gets me going. I'm the guy that bought the entire line of Pathfinder 2e, ran it once, and swore I'd never do it again.

Since WotC took over, D&D has become a web of mechanical interactions and how to break them (shocking for the company that owns MTG) rather than the game I grew up with. Nothing against the people that enjoy that, but I'ma stay away.

edit: I will admit to the blasphemy of using ascending AC when I run 2e, it's mechanically identical, I can do it on the fly, and I don't have to explain THAC0 to my kids.

Yeah shadowdark is more odnd than adnd for sure.
I get it re AC. I’m surprised dolmenwood stuck w thac0

 

[GetInTheRobot]

Disco Elysium can't and won't be recreated because of how unique it was. It was a moment/game that I didn't love but I'm glad exist. BG3 is crpg perfection and while not as unique as Elysium overall is more enjoyable. Wasteland 3 has some insane level of freedom, a unique art style and brings a nice spin on the genre you don't see often.

 

[acidagfc]

I'm new to dnd and while I really like BG3 , I hate its armor system . Heavy armor , medium armor , light armor , doesnt matter , all evasion . Doenst help that a lots of 2H weapon class can chain like 3 hit in a row . You could get unlucky and get 1(3) shot .

Is it hard to add a flat or % damage reduction to this system ? Or will I get flamed by diehard dnd fan to death ?

The way the game shows AC misses with dodge animation is what creates this feeling.
AC only represents how hard is something to damage, not hit.
A dude in full plate has a high AC not becuase he dodges every attack, but because he can soak up small hits. A tabletop DM will describe AC miss according to the situation. The game shows it as a dodge, which is a simplification of the acrual rules.

And yeah, 2h weapons are really hard hitting up close, wizards are supposed to stay far away, they have tools for that.

 

[acidagfc]

I haven't tried Pathfinder at all, but I despise everything about 5e and the modern era of RPGs. They've ruined the whole concept.

I prefer to play AD&D 1e, or B/X old school can also be excellent. My favorite video games in this genre are still the 2e classics like Pool of Radiance... I can't really get into the rest of the genre, certainly not any fusions of RPG with action gameplay.

I fear that 5e-era players don't even know what they're missing. D&D isn't supposed to be just amped up LARPing with dazzling feats, where everyone's a superhero in the story, and you add a few dice rolls against your attributes to see what happens at skill tests.

It's supposed to be a game where the dice shape the movements of the game world, with heavy use of random tables to ensure that the DM isn't writing a story at will, but is interpreting the unfolding of a world. The DM should know the regions, factions, and elements that players can encounter, but how those matters operate and come into play is the purpose of the dice, and the DM should read those like mysterious tea leaves in order to update their own knowledge about the direction things are taking.

Nothing is more mind-numbing than a set narrative that moves from set-piece to set-piece, where players are generally expected to triumph and become heroes. It should be a dangerous world, full of mystery and surprise, where death is real and no one is emotionally obsessed with their current character. Not to mention that writing idiotic backstories overshadows everything.

Isn't it up to DM to determine the heroics and epicness?
You could easily make a grimdark campaign with a crushing difficulty, ala Darkest Dungeon, even with DND5 ruleset.

My DM often told my group (after the session had ended, not during it) that we completely threw off his plans and now he would have to rethink his next sessions. And this was both due to our decisions and the dice rolls, so I don't honestly see how the system hampers mystery or creativity.
Granted, I only played tabletop DND 5, but I never felt that my decision-making was constrained.

 

[anthraticus]

Would be interesting to see how many of the people voting actually played more than five of these games.

It's Neogaf. Most only played the newshit obviously.

 

[Alex11]

In the minority, but really liked Tyranny, there was something unique about it, also loved Pillars of Eternity 2. Disco Elysium is another one that is truly unique and like it a lot.

For whatever reason don't like the gameplay in Baldurs Gate 3, had the same problem with Original Sin 2, which I abandoned. Curiously, didn't have a problem with the first Original Sin.

 

[Zheph]

Arcanum was incredible but it was difficult

I would really like an enhanced edition but I don't think that's happening
Lore was so good and there was some really funny and disturbing quests

 

[ResurrectedContrarian]

My DM often told my group (after the session had ended, not during it) that we completely threw off his plans and now he would have to rethink his next sessions. And this was both due to our decisions and the dice rolls, so I don't honestly see how the system hampers mystery or creativity.

Sure, that still happens in any setup, but what I'm talking about in the old-school approach was very different. It's not just that the players go off script or the battles go unexpected directions, but even the world and encounters are generated to a large extent by dice.

For one example: reaction rolls. These are a major element in 1e/BX/2e, and give an unpredictable value to any encounter. You don't just "meet creature, attack" but can end up with any range of possible reactions, which the DM has to then interpret. Even in a lair, there is a small chance of an unexpected neutral reaction which could turn positive with the lightest bribe or gesture on a second lucky die roll; so perhaps this room of goblins is unsure and doesn't attack you even though they have the surprise factor, but instead sizes you up for a moment, and the DM must come up with a reason why (maybe they are already planning a mutiny against their leader when you came in, and are evaluating if it's worth sending you on your way unimpeded to do the work for them).

The use of hireling/supporter NPCs is also more random in the old games, where each will have a loyalty base number due to various factors like pay and prior experience with you, and a bad enough morale roll against this number in a crisis could make things go a different direction at any time. Let's say that you are surrounded, and the NPC has a very low loyalty at this point, so he might just roll a morale bad enough that the DM could interpret this as a choice of betrayal, to run off with the gold while you're trapped. Even finding hirelings is a special situation in a town where an old-school DM doesn't have them simply pre-build, and there can be dice rolls to find out what unexpected kinds of characters actually show up in the taverns etc when you go looking for support.

Then, other random tables also had a huge footprint in the old games. The original DMG has countless pages in the back of random tables for encountering castles, types of dungeons, personalities, long lists of random types to encounter in a town (eg. town guards on a certain roll, or a small chance of a major regional official, etc), and just about every kind of random weather, trap, or terrain you can roll as the adventure goes along, to keep being surprised and not follow a script.

 

[Mister Wolf]

I prefer 5E.

 

[amigastar]

I would really like an enhanced edition but I don't think that's happening
Lore was so good and there was some really funny and disturbing quests

I would also love an enhanced edition. I remember playing it back in the day.

 

[Mercador]

I would really like an enhanced edition but I don't think that's happening
Lore was so good and there was some really funny and disturbing quests

At some point in the future, you'll be able to play all sort of games in an enhanced edition with the help of AI. It's not how, it's when.

 

[Fools idol]

I would really like an enhanced edition but I don't think that's happening
Lore was so good and there was some really funny and disturbing quests

Activision owns the IP so forget about it lmao

 

[StereoVsn]

Pathfinder implementation in WotR was just *chef's kiss*. The amount of builds and possibilities was mind boggling. My favorite D&D "like" system to date.

 

[Filben]

Personally, I don't care about the underlying "rule set" because for me it's about chance one way or the other. Give me a cRPG where I can really play different roles and shape my character to my liking, also in dialogues and within the story, and I'm fine. Disco Elysium was brilliant at this. More combat orientated games are also cool.

If you have the skill, you've passed.

Loved that in New Vegas. If you haven't got the skill, the dialogue option would change, often to real stupid things you could still say to NPCs who would then react accordingly. It was often hilarious and immersive at the same time.

 

[amigastar]

Pathfinder implementation in WotR was just *chef's kiss*. The amount of builds and possibilities was mind boggling. My favorite D&D "like" system to date.

Can you make a Necromancer build in WotR?

 

[StereoVsn]

Can you make a Necromancer build in WotR?

Never tried so it's a maybe?

 

[Wildebeest]

Can you make a Necromancer build in WotR?

I can't think of a CRPG with a stronger necromancer path than WotR.

 

[amigastar]

I can't think of a CRPG with a stronger necromancer path than WotR.

Sounds good, will play WotR when i finish Baldurs Gate 3.

 

[acidagfc]

Sure, that still happens in any setup, but what I'm talking about in the old-school approach was very different. It's not just that the players go off script or the battles go unexpected directions, but even the world and encounters are generated to a large extent by dice.

For one example: reaction rolls. These are a major element in 1e/BX/2e, and give an unpredictable value to any encounter. You don't just "meet creature, attack" but can end up with any range of possible reactions, which the DM has to then interpret. Even in a lair, there is a small chance of an unexpected neutral reaction which could turn positive with the lightest bribe or gesture on a second lucky die roll; so perhaps this room of goblins is unsure and doesn't attack you even though they have the surprise factor, but instead sizes you up for a moment, and the DM must come up with a reason why (maybe they are already planning a mutiny against their leader when you came in, and are evaluating if it's worth sending you on your way unimpeded to do the work for them).

The use of hireling/supporter NPCs is also more random in the old games, where each will have a loyalty base number due to various factors like pay and prior experience with you, and a bad enough morale roll against this number in a crisis could make things go a different direction at any time. Let's say that you are surrounded, and the NPC has a very low loyalty at this point, so he might just roll a morale bad enough that the DM could interpret this as a choice of betrayal, to run off with the gold while you're trapped. Even finding hirelings is a special situation in a town where an old-school DM doesn't have them simply pre-build, and there can be dice rolls to find out what unexpected kinds of characters actually show up in the taverns etc when you go looking for support.

Then, other random tables also had a huge footprint in the old games. The original DMG has countless pages in the back of random tables for encountering castles, types of dungeons, personalities, long lists of random types to encounter in a town (eg. town guards on a certain roll, or a small chance of a major regional official, etc), and just about every kind of random weather, trap, or terrain you can roll as the adventure goes along, to keep being surprised and not follow a script.

Hmmm, not sure how this affects anything other than DM being under extra pressure of constantly having to come up with excuses for some random shit.

Maybe it matters if you are playing and then re-playing a printed campaign, but if your games are homebrew, players won't know the difference between a planned or chance encounter.

 

[shoplifter]

Hmmm, not sure how this affects anything other than DM being under extra pressure of constantly having to come up with excuses for some random shit.

Maybe it matters if you are playing and then re-playing a printed campaign, but if your games are homebrew, players won't know the difference between a planned or chance encounter.

I would highly recommend "A Quick Primer for Old School Gaming " by Matt Finch. The philosophy is completely different.

 

[acidagfc]

I would highly recommend "A Quick Primer for Old School Gaming " by Matt Finch. The philosophy is completely different.

Thanks, I will surely take a look (the link is awful btw, asking to register for a free pdf, downloaded it elsewhere).
I admit, I only played DND5 as a tabletop (although I played BG1-2 back in the day), so my experience is limited. I would like to have a go with Pathfinder, but finding a group for that is not something I am willing to dedicate my efforts to.

 

[IlGialloMondadori]

Yo, for pen n paper, Ima throw out the Bladerunner RPG as well. Dope as hell.

 

[Rickyiez]

For me its

Baldur Gate 3
Pathfinder Wraith of Righteous
Pillar of Eternity 2

I really dig POE2 , I think it's very underrated

 

[Bkdk]

The biggest wish for baldur's gate as a series is that owlcat will get to make baldur's gate 4 and be released around early 2030. They don't have as much of recourses so wizard of the coast will likely have to put more money in themselves to help them make it possible. However letting different talented crpg studio to make baldur's gate will likely be the best for the series.