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[clarky]

Every US dollar has almost double the purchasing power in China...

Still a lot less than Concord (Sweet Baby fees, hefty marketing campaign etc), though.

CP2077 was also a similar case back in 2020 (it cost a lot less compared to most western AAA games, due to different economics in Poland).

No shit. I thought they made everything in China because of the weather over there.

 

[Negotiator]

No shit. I thought they made everything in China because of the weather over there.

No need to be a sarcastic douchebag, internet stranger.

 

[Z O N E]

I mean, people saying China labour costs are low should really be saying US labour costs are TOO HIGH.

Average salary for a entry level video game developer (1-3 years) in Bellevue Washington is around $120,000. Then you have the fact that other studios are based in California where the salaries are also really damn high and ALSO, the location in the state and paying for the building. USA is just expensive as hell.

Then you have studios paying the same exact voice actors who probably have disgustingly high wages *cough* please stop using Troy Baker for every fucking game *cough*.

Plus I think the developer was just smart with how they used the money. No overpriced popular actor/actress to mocap.

 

[jason10mm]

Chinese labor is a lot cheaper than western labor

Not to mention a "golden net" is waaaaay cheaper than a "golden parachute" when an employee decides to ju...err, leave

Definitely don't think I'd be comparing worker salaries between China and a western dev in the same sentence.

 

[A.Romero]

It's funny to see the contradiction in the general opinion: One side people get riled up whenever Jason publishes an article about how so and so dev company is overworking their employees, on the other side some of the same people will praise a Chinese developer for obtaining results with less money when it definitiely means lower wages (expected given the difference of cost of living) and most likely overworking devs.

It's very similar when people get angry for the conditions of offshore and nearshore workers but at the same time would not take that into account when purchasing cheap products or are not willing to pay more so the items can be manufactured in the US.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Chinese labor is a lot cheaper than western labor

Also Asian labour is harder working with less attitude.

No different than school, work or even something like road construction. Compare US or any western country to Asian countries and I bet Asian workers can do more with less budget and less time.

I remember a video of Japanese construction crew revamping an underground tunnel in something like 8 hours to ensure it’d be ready on time for morning rush hour.

That probably would had been 8 months or 8 years in Canada.

I remember working with a US supplier who sourced from China. I’d get prototypes samples to examine. I’d relay what changes I needed whether it was quality or typos on the label. Somehow he’d relay that to China asap and I’d get a package with corrected samples shipped from China to my desk in literally two days max.

Then I’d asked my own warehouse crew working in our same facility a sample pull or a case pull and they take all week.

Figure that one out.

 

[proandrad]

Not to mention a "golden net" is waaaaay cheaper than a "golden parachute" when an employee decides to ju...err, leave

Definitely don't think I'd be comparing worker salaries between China and a western dev in the same sentence.

No one is saying China is heaven, but believing all of China is some suicidal poverty hell is pure brainwashing by western propaganda. It’s like how Americans rather believe all recent UFOs are alien, than thinking China might have more advanced military surveillance technology than the US military.

 

[Sooner]

Don’t buy into the western propaganda, game devs from top video game developers in China aren’t living under bridges with poverty wages.

Right... living conditions in communist China is all made up by western propaganda.

 

[clarky]

Right... living conditions in communist China is all made up by western propaganda.

Thats not what he said.

 

[jakinov]

Spiderman 2 was $300 million. And they reused the same city for the third game in a row. Western devs are scamming everyone.

What Hacked Files Tell Us About The Studio Behind Spider-Man 2

Internal documents show how a big PlayStation studio plans its future

kotaku.com

I blame Henry Ford and more importantly Dolly Parton for their 9-5, 5 days a week propaganda. The 996 system is clearly way more effective.

We also got to stop over paying people for work. Neighbors kid wanted me to pay him $10 to mow my lawn. I can pay a kid in Asia a fraction of that to make me a box of t-shirts. Kids these days.

 

[geary]

Right... living conditions in communist China is all made up by western propaganda.

And USA is the land of the free....both sentences are propaganda.

 

[Loomy]

What is the average developer salary in China?

 

[proandrad]

Right... living conditions in communist China is all made up by western propaganda.

You don’t think it’s ridiculous to think China has had little to no improvement in standards of living over the years. That all Chinese people are just slaves and struggling to put food on the table. Be a bit more open minded, China has one of the fastest growing middle class in the world.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

And USA is the land of the free....both sentences are propaganda.

Lol. Ya, land of the free.

The country with the most laws and lawyers on earth. All to keep people in line.

Also the country where you can’t even swear or show a boob on network tv unless it’s perhaps 2:00 am in the morning.

Show a boob or say Fuck and everyone goes apeshit like the world is ending. Lol

 

[jason10mm]

And USA is the land of the free....both sentences are propaganda.

Is there a flow of immigrants and refugees heading into China?

Here we give them cash cards, hotel rooms, and train passes! Who is free now?!?!?

 

[AmuroChan]

Real question. Is it western devs are bloated and don’t use their time effectively or that western devs are just way too expensive compared to other countries?

IMO I feel like it’s a bit of both but more towards the devs salaries.

Both. Many western devs are bloated and due to the anti-crunching movement in recent years, they will hire more people as opposed to asking existing staff to work more hours. Second, it's no secret that labor costs in China are many times lower than that of the US. That's why so many of our products are made there. Game development is not immune to that. They're just late to the party.

 

[Hawk The Slayer]

Wow even lower than Stellar Blade's budget cause I read that one was 50 million. Both amazing games.

Hope they'll release a DLC or at least started working on a sequel now. I wonder based on the lore of Journey to the West. How much materials do they got left? Like would they be able to make 2 more games at least for a trilogy? It seems Wukong already has you fighting a lot of really strong beings already. Are there still a lot of tougher big shots within the lore for Wukong to fight?

 

[Kamina]

Outsource everything to China?

+No overpaid consultancy firms
+Good Project Management
+Devs with skill

 

[StreetsofBeige]

It’ll be a slow process but you never know. Give it 10 years.

It might be like traditional manufacturing like how western countries outsourced it to China to make tons of stuff. Then ship it back over the pacific.

But this time it’s gaming. And even better, game companies don’t need to go through the hassle of container ships and ports so you can buy that new microwave. It’s all digital making it easy.

Just like factories making clothes and toasters, you just need some companies home grown in China or a western head office partnering with a Chinese studio to make it for cheap and good quality.

Like anything in life, if the product made overseas is good at a good cost with as little attitude as possible, that checks the boxes for foreign made stuff. And as I said you don’t even have to worry about shipping it over or port strikes. It’s all digital servers.

Video games from china will be common just like tshirts or computers. Just give it time.

 

[ChuckeRearmed]

That's a small fraction of a Concord.

Professor's classes are not cheap

Yeah this is it. And US/UK/most of EU just can’t compete on this. The west can only make sure to always be better. Ain’t doing too well imo…

Yeah. I mean EU workforce is 2 times cheaper than USA and now imagine how much cheaper Asia, when even europe outsource there

 

[ReyBrujo]

Outsource everything to China?

"Just give me a config file where I can set the skin RGB, gender letter and BMI for every protagonist."

 

[Angry_Megalodon]

The idea that skilled workers are paid shit in China is nonsense. But it's not about salaries but hard work.

This is similar to salaries in most European countries.

 

[deriks]

43 mi for four years, or maybe more?!

 

[Moses85]

In Western countries it would be 10 x more.

 

[FalsettoVibe]

good for the company, bad for the devs .
Im pretty sure they have overworked with pea salaries.

Pretty much this.

 

[FoxMcChief]

good for the company, bad for the devs .
Im pretty sure they have overworked with pea salaries.

I mean……

Welcome to life.

 

[Gp1]

 

[DragonNCM]

More AAA games from China incoming..

If they are in quality like Wukong I don't have any objection.

 

[finalflame]

Chinese labor is a lot cheaper than western labor

And they work their employees to the bone with zero work life balance.

Nah, I’m good.

 

[lh032]

I mean……

Welcome to life.

you work in china ? or because you got your game and whatever F the devs ?

Well the thing is......not everybody here is overwork with pea salaries.
Overwork is nothing to brag about.

If you are fine with overworking with pea salaries, go ahead. nobody stopping you.

You should work for 24 hours per day and sleep in the company as well, i'm sure your boss will be very appreciate.

 

[Newuserdontflame]

If their next game has the same input lag I will not be touching it.

 

[FoxMcChief]

you work in china ? or because you got your game and whatever F the devs ?

Well the thing is......not everybody here is overwork with pea salaries.
Overwork is nothing to brag about.

If you are fine with overworking with pea salaries, go ahead. nobody stopping you.

You should work for 24 hours per day and sleep in the company as well, i'm sure your boss will be very appreciate.

I’m just saying, that’s the world we live in. I’ve accepted looking the other way, knowing children and underpaid/overworked people make the products I buy, like electronics.

That’s just how things are. You want to change that? Cool. Just know prices will go up globally.

 

[lh032]

I’m just saying, that’s the world we live in. I’ve accepted looking the other way, knowing children and underpaid/overworked people make the products I buy, like electronics.

That’s just how things are. You want to change that? Cool. Just know prices will go up globally.

companies are not going to stop here, regardless on how economy performs.
The thing here is, they can do this because of people like you, which is the majority sadly.

 

[FoxMcChief]

companies are not going to stop here, regardless on how economy performs.
The thing here is, they can do this because of people like you, which is the majority sadly.

Everyone consumes some kind of product made off the back of underpaid/overworked people. Can be the food you eat, the clothes you wear, the electronics you use to post on this board or play games on, etc.

 

[lh032]

Everyone consumes some kind of product made off the back of underpaid/overworked people. Can be the food you eat, the clothes you wear, the electronics you use to post on this board or play games on, etc.

of course i know that , but there are companies out there that does not overwork or underpaid their staff.

Theres a will theres a way.

 

[MALpractice311]

Lol. Ya, land of the free.

The country with the most laws and lawyers on earth. All to keep people in line.

Also the country where you can’t even swear or show a boob on network tv unless it’s perhaps 2:00 am in the morning.

Show a boob or say Fuck and everyone goes apeshit like the world is ending. Lol

Blame our Puritan founders. Bunch of fucking prudes.

 

[Stooky]

so many trash comments in this thread. suggesting we ship more jobs out of the US and people should not get paid what they are worth and suggesting we should accept Chinese wages. 1 yen = 0.14 us dollar that’s why it’s cheaper. that’s why the world outsources to china. can’t believe some ppl don’t understand this.

also for outsourcing while it is cheaper to outsource when dealing with american company’s they will charge more than when dealing studios in their country. also chinese government will subsidize some of the cost if the project is beneficial to their government/country ie propaganda (we do that to)I don’t believe that budget number.

 

[Fess]

And they work their employees to the bone with zero work life balance.

Nah, I’m good.

Might be so but that’s just how it is and an explanation why they can get stuff out cheaper. The west can’t compete there. It’s the same in many fields, there are few things where China can’t do it cheaper. But cheap isn’t always better and that’s the competitive strength that the west have and need to make sure to keep having or China will steamroll everything. No exaggeration.

 

[Stu_Hart]

Now put some of the $$ they made into optimising for the ps5 further and release it for the xbox series consoles.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Might be so but that’s just how it is and an explanation why they can get stuff out cheaper. The west can’t compete there. It’s the same in many fields, there are few things where China can’t do it cheaper. But cheap isn’t always better and that’s the competitive strength that the west have and need to make sure to keep having or China will steamroll everything. No exaggeration.

When it comes to people buying stuff and companies looking for how to best make products to survive, it all comes down if businesses and customers think it's worth the money.

Most people dont care where something is made as long as they get what they want at a reasonable price. Do people care most electronics are made in Taiwan? Doesnt look like it. And most businesses will go overseas if it makes sense to do so and they got the resources to figure out how to do it. That's really it. No different than me buying a book from a UK book store than local because they somehow had it for dirt cheap with equally cheap shipping over the Atlantic. How or why it's cheaper to get it from a place 5,000 km who knows. I'll get it from the UK.

You cant stop customers from buying stuff how they want, and best way for employees to keep their jobs is to prove to management their work is better and cost efficient vs. a foreigner. If they cant, then too bad. It may get outsourced. Some jobs can like manufacturing or CSR, some cant like a plumber or lawyer who knows local laws and can physically show up in court that afternoon if needed.

Shouldnt be that hard to do. Dont unions and people who are anti-foreigner the ones who preach their quality and work are way better than Asians, Mexicans and anyone in South America who can make it? Foreigners are supposed to be uneduacted, unskilled morons who build junk, while good 'ol USA and Westerners are leagues smarter and better at making stuff. At least thats the vibe I get.

Same goes for gaming. Prove to gamers and management that locally made games are way better than crummy $70 Chinese games and nothing to fear.

 

[Hero of Spielberg]

And only 17 developers died from excessive whippings. A pretty good result all in all.

 

[unlurkified]

A whole new meaning given to the phrase, “you pay peanuts, you get monkeys.”

 

[havoc00]

I mean……

Welcome to life.

why is this normalized?

 

[Negotiator101]

China is going to double down and make western AAA+ devs look like fools.

I'm sorry but where are all these games then? One game that's successful and pretty good doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things, but then again this is Gaf

 

[SHA]

40k a year is the cost of an engineer/ software dev. in China. That’s three times cheaper than in the EU / US.

Multiply the cost by three and that’s around the cost of a western studio.

Oh. And they work more hours. Crunch is the norm.

Cause they eat less and live more?

 

[SkylineRKR]

so many trash comments in this thread. suggesting we ship more jobs out of the US and people should not get paid what they are worth and suggesting we should accept Chinese wages. 1 yen = 0.14 us dollar that’s why it’s cheaper. that’s why the world outsources to china. can’t believe some ppl don’t understand this.

also for outsourcing while it is cheaper to outsource when dealing with american company’s they will charge more than when dealing studios in their country. also chinese government will subsidize some of the cost if the project is beneficial to their government/country ie propaganda (we do that to)I don’t believe that budget number.

Agreed. Many companies get a lot of flak for moving production to China so their assembly of products is far cheaper.

You want to keep your jobs domestic right? Good, but expect products to be more expensive to make. So its only natural that a western developer will be in need of a higher budget. At the same time this is criticized, but at another no one wants western devs to move to china or get in cahoots with Tencent.

I am very critical of western gaming development myself, I think the quality has gone down the drain lately. And gaming budgets can be lowered because I feel a lot of it is spent on useless shit. But a game being more expensive to make over here than in China is just always a given.

 

[Herbspiceguy]

I'm sorry but where are all these games then? One game that's successful and pretty good doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things, but then again this is Gaf

I'm saying the immense success of Wukong will wake up many Chinese developers to pursue, as well as investors to fund more similar big projects on the scale of Wukong, for PC and console.

Also, posting this video as it may help for some posters to readjust their view of gulag hell China. Sensible and educated human beings that most likely have a decent income (relative to their economy) and living standards are not exclusive to the west:

 

[BehemothBlade]

Hold up, its made by Chinese overworked software devs where there are zero labor laws.

If this was made Japan it would cost more.

And if this was made in the west it would cost way more.

 

[ArtHands]

you can fund around 10 Concords with that budget

 

[RoadHazard]

10 games like this vs 1 Concord

You want all games to be made in China? Because I highly doubt the budget would have been anywhere near that in the US or Europe. Would have been at least a few times more.