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Horizon: Forbidden West releases on Steam with lower player count than Horizon: Zero Dawn

OverHeat

« generous god »
@tmlDan oh yes. The 4 horseboys of ps hate are all here. They will attack you. They will say that ps games are bad. But they will not give examples of better games and will still want them on pc.
And they will say ridiculous statements like how this game is much better and looks much better on pc. Usual bs like if it was ps2 vs pc. Games look the same now everywhere.
It looks almost identical, played great on controller but they will still say otherwise just because pcmr. L
Majority of those who wanted to play it, did so happily on ps5. It played just fine.
I didn’t like the game and would never use it as example of good narrative but it’s an ok game.

64bitmodels 64bitmodels rodrigolfp rodrigolfp Gaiff Gaiff BennyBlanco BennyBlanco welcome. Never change. I don’t understand why you are so miserable but do what you like. You wouldn’t even know good game from bad one if you played it yourself. And yes, I will be faster than you. Forspoken is better than hfw.
Nice I was not included hahahaha
 
@tmlDan Forspoken is better than hfw.
Drunk That 70S Show GIF by Peacock


Rofif´d
 
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nemiroff

Gold Member
Guerrilla is a mediocre dev let's be honest here, their best game imo is Killzone Liberation on PSP. They're a technical powerhouse and have one of the best engine in the industry but their games are so mid. I've played the first Horizon game on PC and got bored after a few hours. A generic ubisoft open world inspired slop has no staying power.
Guerilla is a stereotypical "tech first" Crytek style developer.
 

Braag

Member
40k CCP ain’t terrible for a 2 year old port going against DD2. Obviously it could have done better, but there’s genuine interest. Final Fantasy 7 Remake wishes it could have hit those numbers on Steam.
FF7 Remake came to PC 8 months after PS5 release and was Epic exclusive 6 months before hitting Steam.
It's almost like Square wanted the PC release to be a clusterfuck. But they got paid by both Sony and Epic for exclusivity deals so I don't think they care how well it did on Steam.
 

Edellus

Member
Hopefully it's just the DD2 effect instead of lack of awareness/interest.

If I had a capable PC I'd double dip to replay it with 0 graphical compromises. Mighty beautiful and enjoyable game that I can't recommend enough. I'm eagerly waiting for the sequel.
 

mrcroket

Member
The dinobots are some of the highest tier of enemy you can find in any open world period, people can hate on horizon but it doesn't change the fact that enemy quality is far beyond most games.

Great art design, incredible animations, a lot of moves, aggressive, decently smart, super varied and numerous, they have strategic dismemberment etc.

If literally any other game had these enemies it would be praised to oblivion.

You know when people are full of shit when they see the dinobots in horizon and they say stuff like "i don't see a single aspect that could attract people"

48056dde6ffe868b102acfe20d6e9c992194fb15.gif

3a6d1525ba47cd206881e5bd094bf19f.gif


Like gtfo :lollipop_squinting:
Yes, the designs are very nice and the animations too, a shame that doesn't make the gameplay good.
 

OverHeat

« generous god »
The game is not bad when you skip the cutscenes the only big negative is that the world is empty IMO
 

Nvzman

Member
The dinobots are some of the highest tier of enemy you can find in any open world period, people can hate on horizon but it doesn't change the fact that enemy quality is far beyond most games.

Great art design, incredible animations, a lot of moves, aggressive, decently smart, super varied and numerous, they have strategic dismemberment etc.

If literally any other game had these enemies it would be praised to oblivion.

You know when people are full of shit when they see the dinobots in horizon and they say stuff like "i don't see a single aspect that could attract people"

48056dde6ffe868b102acfe20d6e9c992194fb15.gif

3a6d1525ba47cd206881e5bd094bf19f.gif


Like gtfo :lollipop_squinting:
The extremely cinematic gifs you posted have the exact opposite effect you think it has, at least for me.
I already found the first Horizon immensely boring and uninteresting, now I have to deal with giant enemies where I have to walk around and wait for them to show their glowing "fuck me" lights before I can hit them?

Yea I'll pass, no thanks. I don't care how pretty something is if the actual gameplay is as generic as it gets.
 

GymWolf

Member
The extremely cinematic gifs you posted have the exact opposite effect you think it has, at least for me.
I already found the first Horizon immensely boring and uninteresting, now I have to deal with giant enemies where I have to walk around and wait for them to show their glowing "fuck me" lights before I can hit them?

Yea I'll pass, no thanks. I don't care how pretty something is if the actual gameplay is as generic as it gets.
The gifs are just gifs to show how well animated they are, if you actually played the game you should know that the combat is not like you described, especially on the hardest difficulty modes.
 
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GymWolf

Member
And plays practically perfectly on mouse+kb now with minimum lag at ~100fps ultrawide with practically perfect IQ. And will play even better in the future because BC doesn't suck on PC.

Imagine cheering about inferior experiences because of fanboyism...
Yeah, on ultra hard without autoaim at all a mouse must be clutch AF in this game.
 

Mephisto40

Member
Maybe it's not got enough day 1 performance issues and bugs for PC players to consider buying it on release
 
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Vick

Member
Have to agree, their games are massively overrated, one could argue the reason for them being overrated but it doesn't take Einstein to work it out.
PCMR being Sony fanboys?

GVwDJVa.png


The dinobots are some of the highest tier of enemy you can find in any open world period, people can hate on horizon but it doesn't change the fact that enemy quality is far beyond most games.

Great art design, incredible animations, a lot of moves, aggressive, decently smart, super varied and numerous, they have strategic dismemberment etc.

If literally any other game had these enemies it would be praised to oblivion.

You know when people are full of shit when they see the dinobots in horizon and they say stuff like "i don't see a single aspect that could attract people"

48056dde6ffe868b102acfe20d6e9c992194fb15.gif

3a6d1525ba47cd206881e5bd094bf19f.gif


Like gtfo :lollipop_squinting:
@tmlDan oh yes. The 4 horseboys of ps hate are all here. They will attack you. They will say that ps games are bad. But they will not give examples of better games and will still want them on pc.
And they will say ridiculous statements like how this game is much better and looks much better on pc. Usual bs like if it was ps2 vs pc. Games look the same now everywhere.
It looks almost identical, played great on controller but they will still say otherwise just because pcmr. L
Majority of those who wanted to play it, did so happily on ps5. It played just fine.
I didn’t like the game and would never use it as example of good narrative but it’s an ok game.

64bitmodels 64bitmodels rodrigolfp rodrigolfp Gaiff Gaiff BennyBlanco BennyBlanco welcome. Never change. I don’t understand why you are so miserable but do what you like. You wouldn’t even know good game from bad one if you played it yourself. And yes, I will be faster than you. Forspoken is better than hfw.
The gifs are just gifs to show how well animated they are, if you actually played the game you should know that the combat is not like you described, especially on the hardest difficulty modes.
This entire thread has been somewhat of a wake-up call for me.
Made me seriously dwell on the inherent nature of this place and the actual potential it holds for sincere gaming discussions.
 
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hlm666

Member
you will be hunted, the blue city for certain, the green council and there will be others. You will wage this war alone?
64bitmodels 64bitmodels : no not alone (breaks sigil). the 3 others are screaming towards earth in the background to help their brother.

just incase it went over some heads. I'll say there's spoilers in this video but if you havn't finished it yet i'm not sure it's happening.

 

BennyBlanco

aka IMurRIVAL69
@tmlDan oh yes. The 4 horseboys of ps hate are all here. They will attack you. They will say that ps games are bad. But they will not give examples of better games and will still want them on pc.
And they will say ridiculous statements like how this game is much better and looks much better on pc. Usual bs like if it was ps2 vs pc. Games look the same now everywhere.
It looks almost identical, played great on controller but they will still say otherwise just because pcmr. L
Majority of those who wanted to play it, did so happily on ps5. It played just fine.
I didn’t like the game and would never use it as example of good narrative but it’s an ok game.

64bitmodels 64bitmodels rodrigolfp rodrigolfp Gaiff Gaiff BennyBlanco BennyBlanco welcome. Never change. I don’t understand why you are so miserable but do what you like. You wouldn’t even know good game from bad one if you played it yourself. And yes, I will be faster than you. Forspoken is better than hfw.

Who is miserable? 😂

What that guy saying was absurd brand worshipping consoomer nonsense. I guess you find that relatable.

“PS games are above and beyond 99% of PC games in storytelling and that’s a fact”

This is a discussion forum, if you post something like that of course people are gonna say something. If I go into the PSVR2 OT and say this thing is dogshit and getting blown out by Quest 3 I would expect people to respond.
 

yurinka

Member
40k CCP ain’t terrible for a 2 year old port going against DD2. Obviously it could have done better, but there’s genuine interest. Final Fantasy 7 Remake wishes it could have hit those numbers on Steam.
Yes. To be more specific, Dragon's Dogma 2 and Helldivers 2 (also a Sony game), which are the two only paid games above HFW in the best selling Steam games ranking:


image.png
 
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rodrigolfp

Haptic Gamepads 4 Life
Yeah, on ultra hard without autoaim at all a mouse must be clutch AF in this game.
I bet rofif played with the aim assist on defaut setting and never used claw grip handicapping himself even more and came here to say "played great on controller".
PCMR being Sony fanboys?
Maybe some of them are not fanboys but like their games without some lame limitations.
 
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rofif

Can’t Git Gud
And plays practically perfectly on mouse+kb now with minimum lag at ~100fps ultrawide with practically perfect IQ. And will play even better in the future because BC doesn't suck on PC.

Imagine cheering about inferior experiences because of fanboyism...
Image quality was already perfect on ps5 and plays great with dualsense thank you
 

Guilty_AI

Member
And what I am even supposed to take from this display of your apparent insurmountable need for warring?

The user I quoted suggested their games were 'massively overrated,' with the reason implied to be fanaticism.

Rxv8jYL.png
GVwDJVa.png


The basic understanding of the word 'overrated' should render the message self-explanatory.
I mean, many Sony first party games were often treated as these massive holy grails of gaming by gaming places like this. To be losing out to 15 yo titles in both player count and user reviews does suggest they just might be overrated.

Also, comparing Metacritic x Steam reviews is rather misguided, they're indicators of very different things. An already released and well known game on steam getting 90% positive reviews merely means the port isn't awful.
 
That's not surprising at all. If people didn't like the first one, they aren't going to care for the sequel. It's basically more of the same.
 

Zathalus

Member
I would never use Steam reviews to decide how good something is. Its a simple thumbs up/down system, either you recommend it or you don't. A 10/10 or 7/10 game rates the exact same if you recommend both. Technical issues, DRM choice, DLC prices, and crusade of the month can also heavily impact the recommended rating.
 

OverHeat

« generous god »
And what I am even supposed to take from this display of your apparent insurmountable need for warring?

The user I quoted suggested their games were 'massively overrated,' with the reason implied to be fanaticism.

Rxv8jYL.png
GVwDJVa.png


The basic understanding of the word 'overrated' should render the message self-explanatory.



It’s still shit I just booted them both side by side PC and PS5
 
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Gaiff

SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
I would never use Steam reviews to decide how good something is. Its a simple thumbs up/down system, either you recommend it or you don't. A 10/10 or 7/10 game rates the exact same if you recommend both. Technical issues, DRM choice, DLC prices, and crusade of the month can also heavily impact the recommended rating.
Pretty much. Steam reviews only tell you if a game works properly or not, they're seldom a critique of its quality.
 

DForce

NaughtyDog Defense Force
I mean, many Sony first party games were often treated as these massive holy grails of gaming by gaming places like this. To be losing out to 15 yo titles in both player count and user reviews does suggest they just might be overrated.

Also, comparing Metacritic x Steam reviews is rather misguided, they're indicators of very different things. An already released and well known game on steam getting 90% positive reviews merely means the port isn't awful.

This is such dumb logic. lol

A low concurrent player count doesn't prove that a game is overrated.

Resident Evil Village has an All-Time Peak of 106k. So based on your logic, God of War 2018 is overrated because it didn't beat Resident Evil Village.

You have games with higher concurrent player counts on steam that sell less than PlayStation exclusives.

Your logic makes no sense.
 

Vick

Member
Also, comparing Metacritic x Steam reviews is rather misguided, they're indicators of very different things. An already released and well known game on steam getting 90% positive reviews merely means the port isn't awful.
IA 10/10 or 7/10 game rates the exact same if you recommend both. Technical issues, DRM choice, DLC prices, and crusade of the month can also heavily impact the recommended rating.
Pretty much. Steam reviews only tell you if a game works properly or not, they're seldom a critique of its quality.
BGuii62.png
zfkdNQ0.png
DPYhFYV.png

5oHKgiE.png
hM0Tfyv.png


Waiting for a list of port issues within these games. Issues at least equivalent to the likes of Spider-Man which is in multiple regards compromised compared to the PS4 version:

Some examples like shadows LOD (building on the left):

CmAxMkR.gif


Poligonally inferior assets:

NXrWpKq.png

5kWDeq0.png


Inferior assets shaders like the balloons in this example:

TDkefFu.png


Inferior character details like eyelashes in this example:

xO5pCzI.png


Inferior water rendering:

BfjjDEv.png


And countless instances of less appealing digital cinematography:

2DiPPqV.png

And yet:

sSOehgg.png


But I'm kidding, don't even bother cause I'm out of here. This discussion already happened. Every nonsense on here is said, disproven, but said again the next day, often by the same people even.

Last time the end result was me being a fanboy for posting Microsoft games, as if that was the point. No reason to expect a different outcome now, so carry on.
 

Gaiff

SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
BGuii62.png
zfkdNQ0.png
DPYhFYV.png

5oHKgiE.png
hM0Tfyv.png


Waiting for a list of port issues within these games. Issues at least equivalent to the likes of Spider-Man which is in multiple regards compromised compared to the PS4 version:

Some examples like shadows LOD (building on the left):

CmAxMkR.gif


Poligonally inferior assets:

NXrWpKq.png

5kWDeq0.png


Inferior assets shaders like the balloons in this example:

TDkefFu.png


Inferior character details like eyelashes in this example:

xO5pCzI.png


Inferior water rendering:

BfjjDEv.png


And countless instances of less appealing digital cinematography:

2DiPPqV.png

And yet:

sSOehgg.png


But I'm kidding, don't even bother cause I'm out of here. This discussion already happened. Every nonsense on here is said, disproven, but said again the next day, often by the same people even.

Last time the end result was me being a fanboy for posting Microsoft games, as if that was the point. No reason to expect a different outcome now, so carry on.
Redfall, Forza, and Starfield all have or had a myriad of issues with bugs, crashes, and other optimization problems. I don't know about Gears and Halo.
 

Zathalus

Member
BGuii62.png
zfkdNQ0.png
DPYhFYV.png

5oHKgiE.png
hM0Tfyv.png


Waiting for a list of port issues within these games. Issues at least equivalent to the likes of Spider-Man which is in multiple regards compromised compared to the PS4 version:

Some examples like shadows LOD (building on the left):

CmAxMkR.gif


Poligonally inferior assets:

NXrWpKq.png

5kWDeq0.png


Inferior assets shaders like the balloons in this example:

TDkefFu.png


Inferior character details like eyelashes in this example:

xO5pCzI.png


Inferior water rendering:

BfjjDEv.png


And countless instances of less appealing digital cinematography:

2DiPPqV.png

And yet:

sSOehgg.png


But I'm kidding, don't even bother cause I'm out of here. This discussion already happened. Every nonsense on here is said, disproven, but said again the next day, often by the same people even.

Last time the end result was me being a fanboy for posting Microsoft games, as if that was the point. No reason to expect a different outcome now, so carry on.
None of that contradicts what I said though. I never claimed X game was good or that Y game was bad, just that a 90% positive rating doesn't mean a game is a 9/10, it just means 90% of the people rating it thought it was a good enough game to recommend and that nothing at that time distracted from that recommendation.

That same with The Last of Us and Dragons Dogma 2, terrible Steam scores (at launch) because of technical or other reasons, nothing to do with the games core quality.
 

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
Steam users review bombed dragons dogma an hour after the pre-load became available at 8PM est the day before launch. I dont trust these fools. They are those drama queens you see on reality tv shows like real House wives of beverly hills. bored housewives just looking for reasons to get outraged.

Metacritic user reviews are similar. They just do it for different reasons. Anti-woke, politics, blah blah blah.

I say to both, play the fucking game. This is why ive always preferred forums to review scores. I can come in here and articulate whats good about the game, and what doesnt quite work. Cant do that on twitter with that 140 character limit. Cant do that on steam with that up/down voting system. Surprisingly enough, youtube comments have become a rather decent place to talk about anything in a more critical fashion. Reddit's voting system is trash too but at least they let you type more than 140 characters.

The only problem with forums is that they are infested with fanboys. People who like brands instead of games. I remember Hamas Sympathizer Bo_hazam literally openly said that he likes Sony as a brand. I am like i like sony because i like the games they make. When they start making games i dont like, i wont continue to like sony. But he's like nope, i will love sony forever. People like him make discussing games on forums an absolute nightmare because you dont want to discuss anything with a blind fanboy. So you have to swift through replies and accusations of trolling and mocking just to have a decent discussion with people who genuinely like the game on the game's shortcomings.

And horizon has plenty of those shortcomings despite the extraordinary visuals and production values. There is an insane amount of content which to some people just means the game must be amazing. But to me, FF16's MMO quest design is no different from Horizon's fetch quest design. Just because HFW packages its dialogue scenes in stunning cutscene fidelity doesnt mean the formula isnt the same. There are issues with the combat here too. Again, people see dinobots and fancy combat animations and they are like it must be amazing! But no, it was amazing in the first game but the minor but consequential changes they made to the combat systems made the game a chore to play. It removed the fun and turned every encounter into an exercise in gymnastics. Game simply doesnt work when enemies dont give you a breather and just gang up on you. At least you PC guys dont have to live with the insane stunned animations the game locked you into at launch. But if we werent allowed to bitch about it, you wouldve been playing the most frustrating game ive played in years.
 

Guilty_AI

Member
This is such dumb logic. lol

A low concurrent player count doesn't prove that a game is overrated.

Resident Evil Village has an All-Time Peak of 106k. So based on your logic, God of War 2018 is overrated because it didn't beat Resident Evil Village.

You have games with higher concurrent player counts on steam that sell less than PlayStation exclusives.

Your logic makes no sense.
God of War 2018 is most certainly overrated though, my biggest disappointment with Sony last gen. But then again i don't think there's any point discussing this specific topic with the "NaughtyDog Defense Force"

BGuii62.png
zfkdNQ0.png
DPYhFYV.png

5oHKgiE.png
hM0Tfyv.png


Waiting for a list of port issues within these games. Issues at least equivalent to the likes of Spider-Man which is in multiple regards compromised compared to the PS4 version:
Bugs, glitches, crashes, bad performance... yes, all these games had these kinds of technical issues from what i recall. Certainly much worse compared to Spider man where it was just a few stutters here and there and not the highest quality models loading correctly in a few cutscenes. Adding to that fact, they were day 1 releases so all the frustrated costumers with broken hype were also leaving bad reviews.
 
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DForce

NaughtyDog Defense Force
God of War 2018 is most certainly overrated though, my biggest disappointment with Sony last gen.
Numbers are proving you wrong.

God of War sold better on one platform than Resident Evil Village.

But then again i don't think there's any point discussing this specific topic with the "NaughtyDog Defense Force"

That's a good excuse when your logic completely failed and you're unable to defend it lol
 

GymWolf

Member
Steam users review bombed dragons dogma an hour after the pre-load became available at 8PM est the day before launch. I dont trust these fools. They are those drama queens you see on reality tv shows like real House wives of beverly hills. bored housewives just looking for reasons to get outraged.

Metacritic user reviews are similar. They just do it for different reasons. Anti-woke, politics, blah blah blah.

I say to both, play the fucking game. This is why ive always preferred forums to review scores. I can come in here and articulate whats good about the game, and what doesnt quite work. Cant do that on twitter with that 140 character limit. Cant do that on steam with that up/down voting system. Surprisingly enough, youtube comments have become a rather decent place to talk about anything in a more critical fashion. Reddit's voting system is trash too but at least they let you type more than 140 characters.

The only problem with forums is that they are infested with fanboys. People who like brands instead of games. I remember Hamas Sympathizer Bo_hazam literally openly said that he likes Sony as a brand. I am like i like sony because i like the games they make. When they start making games i dont like, i wont continue to like sony. But he's like nope, i will love sony forever. People like him make discussing games on forums an absolute nightmare because you dont want to discuss anything with a blind fanboy. So you have to swift through replies and accusations of trolling and mocking just to have a decent discussion with people who genuinely like the game on the game's shortcomings.

And horizon has plenty of those shortcomings despite the extraordinary visuals and production values. There is an insane amount of content which to some people just means the game must be amazing. But to me, FF16's MMO quest design is no different from Horizon's fetch quest design. Just because HFW packages its dialogue scenes in stunning cutscene fidelity doesnt mean the formula isnt the same. There are issues with the combat here too. Again, people see dinobots and fancy combat animations and they are like it must be amazing! But no, it was amazing in the first game but the minor but consequential changes they made to the combat systems made the game a chore to play. It removed the fun and turned every encounter into an exercise in gymnastics. Game simply doesnt work when enemies dont give you a breather and just gang up on you. At least you PC guys dont have to live with the insane stunned animations the game locked you into at launch. But if we werent allowed to bitch about it, you wouldve been playing the most frustrating game ive played in years.
Being overly aggressive doesn't cancel all the reason i listed for them being extraordinary enemies.

And in a world of piss easy AAA games i take super aggressive enemies and a slightly unfair challenge (that is always personal and can be attributed to skill issue since combat being great is the most common praise in every horizon review) over lethargic enemies that let you do all the fuck you want.
Also, You have an extremely op set of weapons and skill, without being overly aggressive the game would be unbalanced, and you have like 6 different difficulty levels to chose.

Go play doom eternal or any frenetic fps on max difficulty if you wanna see a really unfair challenge :lollipop_squinting:

Nobody is tricked by fancy animations, we weren't born yesterday.
 
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SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
Being overly aggressive doesn't cancel all the reason i listed for them being extraordinary enemies.

And in a world of piss easy AAA games i take super aggressive enemies and a slightly unfair challenge (that is always personal and can be attributed to skill issue since combat being great is the most common praise in every horizon review) over lethargic enemies that let you do all the fuck you want.
Also, You have an extremely op set of weapons and skill, without being overly aggressive the game would be unbalanced, and you have like 6 different difficulty levels to chose.

Nobody is tricked by fancy animations, we weren't born yesterday.
Games need to be fun. I dont think reviews understand what makes combat fun. You saw this recently with FF7 Rebirth. The delicate balance they cultivated in FF7 is thrown out the window with aggressive enemies, flying enemies, and a pulled back camera that makes it hard to track enemies. 93 metacritic. Elden Ring had those enemies who just would never stop attacking. Ever. I even saw the video where it shows how the AI reacts to your inputs the second you hit them. there is no delay so any time you pull out your estus flask, they will attack you without delay. Then there were those stupidly long delayed attacks that made dodging a pain. 97 metacritic.

I dont mind challenge. i have dozens of platinums and most from back when they used to require beating games on the hardest difficulty. ive beaten all souls games multiple times. dozens of times. i started with bloodborne. the most difficult of them all. difficulty can be mastered, but poor combat design is poor combat design. Elden Ring and Horizon focus way too much on creating DPS builds that take out enemies in a few hits instead of focusing on that dance of defense and offense that makes games fun. i have posted dozens of videos of me killing horizon bosses in one hit in the end game. but that was after 100 hours of farming and building up DPS.

Here is how a combat scenario typically goes in HFW:
- Enemies go aggro right away and charge.
- Smaller enemies start lunging at you with melee attacks
- You dodge them but the bigger enemies now have range attacks and they throw stuff where you would land
- you dodge around 5 to 6 times to give yourself enough time to get a shot or two in.
- 5/10 times you hit the armor for 1 damage.
- You finally get hit after saying fuck it and decide to stop dodging like a little shit, and immediately get staggered.
- now you are stuck in an animation while you try and get up as they all gangbang you like riley reid.
- Rinse and repeat.

Every single encounter is like this. 1v1 against bosses are slightly better, but there are actual combat design decisions they made here that deserve criticsm. If they werent actual criticisms they wouldnt have changed the timings on the stagger animations. let alone the frequency of getting staggered.

There is nothing wrong with making enemies more aggro, giving them range attacks and mixing in different kinds of robots for varietys sake. However, you need to give the player the tools and no more elemental types are not enough. Aloy needed a shield. A parry move. Allies like in Dragons Dogma 2 that kept you in the game by distracting other enemies. BB did this 9 years ago. Made enemies aggressive as fuck and upped the tempo but then gave you the tools to tackle them. They increase attack speeds, they let you gain your health back, they gave you an easy parry with a massive timing window. they gave you range attacks and designed bosses around those mechanics. it never felt unfair, and always felt fun. Cant say the same about horizon.
 
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