Support NeoGAF

[Peggies]

This is not really on immigrants but on your government for not integrating them properly. For example France has this:

1. Obligatory kindergarten to prevent kids from being brought up in a sectarian environment till the age of 6
2. Everything related to acquiring citizenship requires knowledge of French history, values and language.

Yes, Austria has both of these two points as well but we're not talking about immigrants but about refugees for fuck's sake.
Not integrating them properly? Wtf? What more can we do? They have free acommodation, free language classes, free education, free medicine.
The shit about "ghettos" is nonsense too because they usually want to go where their communities are and don't want to live in rural areas.

Oh and overall: are you seriously talking about a good example of integration when it comes to France?! Banlieus, beheaded teachers?

 

[Cyberpunkd]

Oh and overall: are you seriously talking about a good example of integration when it comes to France?! Banlieus, beheaded teachers?

But when there is trouble riot police beats them up lol AFAIK this is different than e.g. Germany where the police is scared to do anything.

 

[Peggies]

So what? They created ghettos because they needed cheap labour to work in their factories but made sure to still make money from them by owning the land they build their ghettos on. Then when there is a need for more labour and not enough housing or land for them you get a crowded situation. The poor people that have to work in the city are stuck in this situation while you now have a middle class with the luxury of moving away.

Go ahead and lament about your moustache twirling villain factory owner, suppressing the poor. In Europe lol!

 

[Peggies]

But when there is trouble riot police beats them up lol AFAIK this is different than e.g. Germany where the police is scared to do anything.

First of all, I don't want to live in a country where police have to fuck people rioting up, nor was it necessary in the past.
Second of all, I don't know about Germany but can you imagine the headlines when Austrian or German police "beats them up" as you refer to it?

 

[Fools idol]

an update; looks like the Italian army is going to be overseeing a temporary water patrol around the entire (relatively small) island for the next few weeks.

The Lampedusa police are resigning en-masse as tensions and crime has rocketed beyond their ability to control due to lack of funding and man power. I suspect the army will be going in soon. Really surprising to see lack of media coverage on this, al jazeera seems to be the only one

edit - looks like the MM (italian navy) patrol is already in place. Multiple MM ships seen off the southern coast this morning circling the island.

 

[funkygunther]

Go ahead and lament about your moustache twirling villain factory owner, suppressing the poor. In Europe lol!

Of course when you don't want to understand you can only try and mock. I could easily just say go ahead and lament about the foreigners overtaking your nation without having any clue how you got into this situation or why you actually feel that way. Ignorance is bliss

 

[Trunx81]

German media today

 

[Madserb2023]

Of course when you don't want to understand you can only try and mock. I could easily just say go ahead and lament about the foreigners overtaking your nation without having any clue how you got into this situation or why you actually feel that way. Ignorance is bliss

Europeans are far from ignorant. Europe is a pretty fantastic place to live and unlike the US our equivalent of West Virginia looks like Connecticut in comparison. Our cities again are really nice for the most part as to why the middle class in Europe live in the city centre and poor live in the suburbs. It's the reverse. People want to keep it this way and for it not to become like the US.

 

[Peggies]

Of course when you don't want to understand you can only try and mock. I could easily just say go ahead and lament about the foreigners overtaking your nation without having any clue how you got into this situation or why you actually feel that way. Ignorance is bliss

Thanks M Madserb2023 you put it quite right!

 

[Tams]

an update; looks like the Italian army is going to be overseeing a temporary water patrol around the entire (relatively small) island for the next few weeks.

The Lampedusa police are resigning en-masse as tensions and crime has rocketed beyond their ability to control due to lack of funding and man power. I suspect the army will be going in soon. Really surprising to see lack of media coverage on this, al jazeera seems to be the only one

edit - looks like the MM (italian navy) patrol is already in place. Multiple MM ships seen off the southern coast this morning circling the island.

Oh, but the media will be there if the economic migrant, sorry 'refugee', boats start sinking.

Probably will charter their own boats and aircraft!

 

[AJUMP23]

Oh, but the media will be there if the economic migrant, sorry 'refugee', boats start sinking.

Probably will charter their own boats and aircraft!

Record them drowning, but will not save them.

 

[funkygunther]

Europeans are far from ignorant. Europe is a pretty fantastic place to live and unlike the US our equivalent of West Virginia looks like Connecticut in comparison. Our cities again are really nice for the most part as to why the middle class in Europe live in the city centre and poor live in the suburbs. It's the reverse. People want to keep it this way and for it not to become like the US.

Well you see you already have two Europeans contradicting each other over this so to discuss further we can get into specifics of the individual cities and some industrialised sooner than others, some were affected by WW1 and WW2 more than others and some are much newer than others.

 

[Madserb2023]

Well you see you already have two Europeans contradicting each other over this so to discuss further we can get into specifics of the individual cities and some industrialised sooner than others, some were affected by WW1 and WW2 more than others and some are much newer than others

There is no need to go into detail. You just have to travel around the US. I have and if that's success then I don't want it. The cities outside of New York either have no city centre to speak of or is in so much disrepair, it's hard to imagine it's on the developed world and I am sure there are many Americans on here that will agree. They have South African levels of segregation in their cities where 90% of black people live here and 90% of whites live here etc and that's the norm for them. That's all they know. That's not integration for obvious reasons. For most of Europe that was not the case until very recently and is starting to show its face in London, Paris etc. Many of us don't want that. Go to Prague, Budapest, Rome, Munich, Zurich, Strasbourg etc and it's the reverse of any equally sized US city. Sadly some Europeans are by the looks of things are starting to adopt Anerican attitudes. Ghettos etc. I have been to a 'ghetto' in Copenhagen and let's just say it was like Palm Beach compared to what I saw in Seattle and thats hardly regarded as a poor city.

 

[Tams]

There is no need to go into detail. You just have to travel around the US. I have and if that's success then I don't want it. The cities outside of New York either have no city centre to speak of or is in so much disrepair, it's hard to imagine it's on the developed world and I am sure there are many Americans on here that will agree. They have South African levels of segregation in their cities where 90% of black people live here and 90% of whites live here etc and that's the norm for them. That's all they know. That's not integration for obvious reasons. For most of Europe that was not the case until very recently and is starting to show its face in London, Paris etc. Many of us don't want that. Go to Prague, Budapest, Rome, Munich, Zurich, Strasbourg etc and it's the reverse of any equally sized US city. Sadly some Europeans are by the looks of things are starting to adopt Anerican attitudes. Ghettos etc. I have been to a 'ghetto' in Copenhagen and let's just say it was like Palm Beach compared to what I saw in Seattle and thats hardly regarded as a poor city.

Yeah, whenever I go to London (which is as little as possible), there are some areas I avoid.

And even then, I've been on a bus pass through one of them and had schoolkids come on and shout at each other in Arabic.

 

[Toots]

Well you see you already have two Europeans contradicting each other over this so to discuss further we can get into specifics of the individual cities and some industrialised sooner than others, some were affected by WW1 and WW2 more than others and some are much newer than others.

I wouldn't try to appeal to reason with them in this context. You know how polarizing this topic is, and clearly you lost at least peggies whose keaton wanking gif means "im too lazy and unsure of my intellectual capacities to even try understanding what you're telling me with your big words".

There is no need to go into detail. You just have to travel around the US. I have and if that's success then I don't want it. The cities outside of New York either have no city centre to speak of or is in so much disrepair, it's hard to imagine it's on the developed world and I am sure there are many Americans on here that will agree. They have South African levels of segregation in their cities where 90% of black people live here and 90% of whites live here etc and that's the norm for them. That's all they know. That's not integration for obvious reasons. For most of Europe that was not the case until very recently and is starting to show its face in London, Paris etc. Many of us don't want that. Go to Prague, Budapest, Rome, Munich, Zurich, Strasbourg etc and it's the reverse of any equally sized US city. Sadly some Europeans are by the looks of things are starting to adopt Anerican attitudes. Ghettos etc. I have been to a 'ghetto' in Copenhagen and let's just say it was like Palm Beach compared to what I saw in Seattle and thats hardly regarded as a poor city.

I guess going into detail would show that everything you said based on your anecdotal experience doesn't hold scrutiny.
I put some of your mentalist takes on bold. I'll just say that broad generalizations never bode well for any argumentation.

 

[GymWolf]

German media today

Poor childrens, they have no fault in any of this.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Is this how American cities are? That’s sad. In Europe we try to make cities liveable for its inhabitants.
When everyone is driving to the city each morning you get traffic jams. Time I commute is time wasted, and time is the most precious asset you have, rich people know that very well.

I think it's more of a US thing. That's why over time you get so many with blocks and blocks of ghettos and poor areas. It's not like that druggie area built 50 years started as a drug haven once the home builder finished erecting the final house and people moved in. It was probably just a normal neighbourhood. But give it a few decades and if the neghbourhood starts getting scuzzy, the city can do things about it if they reaally wanted to. But it festers and at some pint it's too late to do anything except find some developers, get permits approved and gentrify the neighbourhood by forcing people to move and bulldozers come by so condos can be built.

Torontos planning is different because the city plans it so you never get dense areas of poor or drugged up people. Misery loves company. And druggies and their trafficker stick together. But Toronto zones the city in such a way low income apartments, subsidized housing and such are spread out so it's hard for masses of low income hard on their luck people to create giant slums. In the US, they'll concentrate that all into a ghetto neighbourhood and not really give a shit.

When things are spread out, it's harder for any trouble makers to do stuff as you dont have the numbers to egg each other on making it worse. Any issues are self contained.

My parents live a $2M+ house in a nice neighbourhood. Moved there in the early 90s (I was still living at home at the time). As weird as it seems suddenly on a corner a few blocks away the city put up a low income subsidized apartment. At the time, you dont really know why. But it's kind of weird to put a building like this in an area with decent strip malls and slick houses. But hey, the city spread it out and I never heard once any trouble coming from that building. I'm not saying there's never been trouble, but when things are spread out trouble cant exponentially accelerate. Its harder for numerous 300 person low income buildings across town to cause issues vs. a block of 10 buildings with 3000 people.

 

[Cyberpunkd]

My parents live a $2M+ house in a nice neighbourhood. Moved there in the early 90s (I was still living at home at the time). As weird as it seems suddenly on a corner a few blocks away the city put up a low income subsidized apartment. At the time, you dont really know why. But it's kind of weird to put a building like this in an area with decent strip malls and slick houses. But hey, the city spread it out and I never heard once any trouble coming from that building. I'm not saying there's never been trouble, but when things are spread out trouble cant exponentially accelerate. Its harder for numerous 300 person low income buildings across town to cause issues vs. a block of 10 buildings with 3000 people.

This is what happens in Paris as well, each district has HLM (community housing), they are not put together in one part of the city. Most of the dangerous suburbs - banlieu in French - became this way because of residential towers clustered together (legacy of Le Corbusier).

 

[Madserb2023]

I wouldn't try to appeal to reason with them in this context. You know how polarizing this topic is, and clearly you lost at least peggies whose keaton wanking gif means "im too lazy and unsure of my intellectual capacities to even try understanding what you're telling me with your big words".


I guess going into detail would show that everything you said based on your anecdotal experience doesn't hold scrutiny.
I put some of your mentalist takes on bold. I'll just say that broad generalizations never bode well for any argumentation.

All will say Is that the US publishes its census data and the demographic lay out of their cities and you can literally see it. You can debate me on other things but not demograhics unless the data the government provides is as fake as Trump University.

 

[Toots]

All will say Is that the US publishes its census data and the demographic lay out of their cities and you can literally see it. You can debate me on other things but not demograhics unless the data the government provides is as fake as Trump University.

If you have numbers it will tremendously your cause to show them.
In France we actually don't have them because it is forbidden to do racial statistics.
If the US is as segregated as you say it's a shame but even then you should not compare as clearly they don't have the same influx of migrants than Europe. There's no massive african and arab immigration and the US black population has been here for a long time and is totally accultured. One thing about what i can see of immigration in Paris is that there's a lot of old dude or broad who don't speak french so obviously they will never integrate the society but they are old and must have been brought by they're children to enjoy Frnace's benefit. But really they don't cost that much and their children work and participate to the economy so no harm no foul.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

If you have numbers it will tremendously your cause to show them.
In France we actually don't have them because it is forbidden to do racial statistics.
If the US is as segregated as you say it's a shame but even then you should not compare as clearly they don't have the same influx of migrants than Europe. There's no massive african and arab immigration and the US black population has been here for a long time and is totally accultured. One thing about what i can see of immigration in Paris is that there's a lot of old dude or broad who don't speak french so obviously they will never integrate the society but they are old and must have been brought by they're children to enjoy Frnace's benefit. But really they don't cost that much and their children work and participate to the economy so no harm no foul.

Immigration good/bad really comes down to who comes over and if they contribute to the area. Nobody has to even know the language to be a good person who contributes or stays out of trouble. Toronto GTA is tons of Indian and Chinese people who dont know English jack shit. But it's ok since either their family takes care of them, or they live in a part of the city that has tons of similar background minorities where all the stores, restaurants and banks are multilingual with staff who are bilingual and signage in multiple languages.

Nobody gives a shit what you look like or where you came from. As long as you do what you do and dont cause trouble nobody cares if there's tons of strip malls catered to Indian people in Brampton or Chinese people in Markham.

 

[funkygunther]

nobody cares if there's tons of strip malls catered to Indian people in Brampton

Right, no-one.

How Brampton, a town in suburban Ontario, was dubbed a ghetto

The city’s predominant South Asian population is a subject of racial tension – and that may continue to grow

www.theglobeandmail.com

In 2014, anti-Sikh flyers distributed by an immigration reform group called Immigration Watch, entitled “The Changing Face of Brampton” and asking residents “Is This Really What You Want?” sparked outrage among Sikh community groups. Another flyer distributed in March, 2015, warned of the city’s dwindling “European” population, implying the decline was a result of “white genocide.”

Tensions happen between groups, it's normal. There's no point ignoring it. If it's not colour, it's culture. If not culture, its class. If not that, something else. It goes all the way down to Springfield/Shelbyville rival schools bullshit. Some of it primal, some of it learned. But we can always overcome it like we have done other unwanted behaviour.

So rather than pretend everything's fine we need to see it, understand why and how we got here, who, if anyone, is benefitting, and what the best way of achieving harmony is.

 

[Hayabusa83]

I have no problem with the sinking of boats. Borders should be defended, violently if necessary.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Right, no-one.

How Brampton, a town in suburban Ontario, was dubbed a ghetto

The city’s predominant South Asian population is a subject of racial tension – and that may continue to grow

www.theglobeandmail.com

Tensions happen between groups, it's normal. There's no point ignoring it. If it's not colour, it's culture. If not culture, its class. If not that, something else. It goes all the way down to Springfield/Shelbyville rival schools bullshit. Some of it primal, some of it learned. But we can always overcome it like we have done other unwanted behaviour.

So rather than pretend everything's fine we need to see it, understand why and how we got here, who, if anyone, is benefitting, and what the best way of achieving harmony is.

The amount of clashing is microscopic. And anyone complaining are making mountains out of molehills for sake of self interests.

That's like me saying that weird random multipage pamphlet I get in the mail once a year saying Jewish people are ruining everything means everyone hates Jewish people and the metro area is crumbling. My neighbours get the same bigoted mailer too. Probably the entire block does.

 

[Hayabusa83]

Right, no-one.

How Brampton, a town in suburban Ontario, was dubbed a ghetto

The city’s predominant South Asian population is a subject of racial tension – and that may continue to grow

www.theglobeandmail.com

Tensions happen between groups, it's normal. There's no point ignoring it. If it's not colour, it's culture. If not culture, its class. If not that, something else. It goes all the way down to Springfield/Shelbyville rival schools bullshit. Some of it primal, some of it learned. But we can always overcome it like we have done other unwanted behaviour.

So rather than pretend everything's fine we need to see it, understand why and how we got here, who, if anyone, is benefitting, and what the best way of achieving harmony is.

You import the third world, you become the third world. Look at Toronto under Comrade Chow.

 

[funkygunther]

The amount of clashing is microscopic. And anyone complaining are making mountains out of molehills for sake of self interests.

That's like me saying that weird random multipage pamphlet I get in the mail once a year saying Jewish people are ruining everything means everyone hates Jewish people and the metro area is crumbling. My neighbours get the same bigoted mailer too. Probably the entire block does.

Don't say "nobody" if you don't mean "nobody" then.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Don't say "nobody" if you don't mean "nobody" then.

Dont take words literally at 100%.

The world has 8 billion people. People make general statements all the time. Thats like me saying everyone likes a good pizza and beer when in reality some people abstain from alcohol, are lactose intolerant and avoid pizza because it's high calories.

The poor people that have to work in the city are stuck in this situation while you now have a middle class with the luxury of moving away.

That's not entirely true. Poor people can move and not all middle classers can easily move either. Next time you make statements like that make sure to say "some" since it's not 100% absolute.

I'll make sure to call out all your absolute statements too going forward.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

This is what happens in Paris as well, each district has HLM (community housing), they are not put together in one part of the city. Most of the dangerous suburbs - banlieu in French - became this way because of residential towers clustered together (legacy of Le Corbusier).

And thats where good government is needed. Good policies and fast.

Anyone who claims government takes forever on things is wrong. They can act fast when they need to. Look what happened with covid. Nothing really happened and then out of nowhere mayors are closing down businesses, enacting mask policies, vaccine sign up websites etc.... seemed pretty fast to me.

It comes down to whether they think it's a crisis worth working fast on and how much they really care.

It's like that atrocious Seattle Chop Zone. It dont become 6 or 9 blocks of stupidity in one evening. It grew bigger and bigger. If the city stopped it right away at block one when vandals started trashing stuff and taking over it could had ended fast. But the city didnt do anything for a month or two so it grew making it harder to control and more damaged property.

Personal life, work, government. All kind of the same. When a big issue pops up you can either: do nothing and hope it solves itself, go slow "I'll eventually get around to it when I got time", or act fast solving it and move on.

 

[funkygunther]

Dont take words literally at 100%.

The world has 8 billion people. People make general statements all the time. Thats like me saying everyone likes a good pizza and beer when in reality some people abstain from alcohol, are lactose intolerant and avoid pizza because it's high calories.

That's not entirely true. Poor people can move and not all middle classers can easily move either. Next time you make statements like that make sure to say "some" since it's not 100% absolute.

I'll make sure to call out all your absolute statements too going forward.

Yes please do, maybe then we'll get somewhere. I would be quite happy talking about middle classes not being able to move but the details would need to be qualified by you.

First time I responded to your generalities with a generality, the second time I didn't because the context of "nobody" caring was in direct contrast to an article i found that actually some people do. I did that to expose that yes indeed race tensions exist, no matter how miniscule you now say it is. Which is a change in topic where you admit they do exist but want to qualify that they're OK or something?

 

[BigDeadFreak]

It's amazing how little coverage this is getting in any part of the media in the UK.

It's basically an invasion of a part of Europe but no one seems to care.

Yet, when a man kisses a female footballer for a few seconds it gets front page coverage for weeks and the U.N. get involved.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Yes please do, maybe then we'll get somewhere. I would be quite happy talking about middle classes not being able to move but the details would need to be qualified by you.

First time I responded to your generalities with a generality, the second time I didn't because the context of "nobody" caring was in direct contrast to an article i found that actually some people do. I did that to expose that yes indeed race tensions exist, no matter how miniscule you now say it is. Which is a change in topic where you admit they do exist but want to quantify that they're OK or something?

Thats for you to prove not me. You stated it in absolute terms. You're telling me out of the billions of poor and middle class people in the world, poor people arent able to ever leave a spot and all middle classes have the luxury to leave when they want?

I dont even care if you answer or not. But for the future, lay low on nitpicking absolutes/generalities because I can do the same back.

We can leave this discussion as is and move on.

 

[funkygunther]

Thats for you to prove not me. You stated it in absolute terms. You're telling me out of the billions of poor and middle class people in the world, poor people arent able to ever leave a spot and all middle classes have the luxury to leave when they want?

I dont even care if you answer or not. But for the future, lay low on nitpicking absolutes/generalities because I can do the same back.

We can leave this discussion as is and move on.

OK I use your own post about rich people moving away as proof. There, easy. Your turn. But you want to run away after one piece of evidence to the contrary because you don't want to discuss what the right amount of racial tension is for you.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

It's amazing how little coverage this is getting in any part of the media in the UK.

It's basically an invasion of a part of Europe but no one seems to care.

Yet, when a man kisses a female footballer for a few seconds it gets front page coverage for weeks and the U.N. get involved.

Probably because it hasnt gotten to a point of mass crisis. Also its in Italy. If someone like that happened in US soil it would be different. There was Seattle Chop Zone coverage everywhere and that started out as just a block with perhaps a couple hundred people.

It's like when a ferry sinks in Phillappines. It's a small one day article. Never hear about it again. But then a murder suicide happens involving two people and every news station is talking about it for months as if these two people are the greatest people on earth.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Europeans are far from ignorant. Europe is a pretty fantastic place to live and unlike the US our equivalent of West Virginia looks like Connecticut in comparison. Our cities again are really nice for the most part as to why the middle class in Europe live in the city centre and poor live in the suburbs. It's the reverse. People want to keep it this way and for it not to become like the US.

Big US cities are similar. Downtown core is meant for work. Tons of workers, subways back and forth from burbs to downtown etc... Once the evening comes about it can be a deadzone unless there's enough districts of restaurants and nightlife to being them back downtown.

Big Canadian cities are zoned so that there is always downtown core of skyscrapers and you got all the usual big industries down there like media, law offices, bank towers etc.... BUT, the city always seem to zone them with tons of condos so there's always shit going on. Its tough to have big slums created when property developers try to gentrify the area and downtowners are taking over buying condos every other block. You get the usual mass of beggars looking for money because they always follow where the people are, but slums dont typically grow in nice areas because they dont like hanging in those areas and the city wont put up with 5000 people doing trying to do a mass tent city at Yonge/Bloor. Even if they tried, the city would eventually crash the party and disperse it. In the US, the mayors seem to not really give a shit if ghettos or tent cities pop up.

 

[Fools idol]

I have no problem with the sinking of boats. Borders should be defended, violently if necessary.

dude.. they have children in them. We cant just be out there blowing up kids bruh jesus fuckin christ xD

 

[NickFire]

It's amazing how little coverage this is getting in any part of the media in the UK.

It's basically an invasion of a part of Europe but no one seems to care.

Yet, when a man kisses a female footballer for a few seconds it gets front page coverage for weeks and the U.N. get involved.

High probability that they just don't want to admit they were wrong before.

 

[Tams]

dude.. they have children in them. We cant just be out there blowing up kids bruh jesus fuckin christ xD

I mean, technically that's very ageist of you.

 

[bitbydeath]

dude.. they have children in them. We cant just be out there blowing up kids bruh jesus fuckin christ xD

Do nothing and you’re killing kids on the island. It’s a lose-lose situation.

 

[Hayabusa83]

dude.. they have children in them. We cant just be out there blowing up kids bruh jesus fuckin christ xD

Blame the NGOs and human traffickers for that.

 

[Peggies]

I wouldn't try to appeal to reason with them in this context. You know how polarizing this topic is, and clearly you lost at least peggies whose keaton wanking gif means "im too lazy and unsure of my intellectual capacities to even try understanding what you're telling me with your big words".


I guess going into detail would show that everything you said based on your anecdotal experience doesn't hold scrutiny.
I put some of your mentalist takes on bold. I'll just say that broad generalizations never bode well for any argumentation.

Oh no, Toots! Are you still mad at me?

 

[Toots]

Oh no, Toots! Are you still mad at me?

That goddam keaton gif is giving me ptsd
Anyway what are you doing here don't you have a husband to milk ?