Generic
Member
Why there should be a connection between players and developers? They aren't my friends.
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Brigandier
Gold Member
You are confusing Friendship with Understanding your audience. No one asks them to be friends, they just stopped understanding and, in principle, paying attention to the needs of the audience for which they make games. At some point in time, studios began to make products that promote the interests of the corporation and the studio itself, rather than trying to create a product for players.
Generic
Member
But really, why? I play games, not game developers.
Yes, it's called capitalism.
And now they are eating the consequences of this behavior with a full spoon. And if they do not turn to face the players, we will continue to see a series of weak projects, games that did not pay off, etc.
Bernardougf
Member
For capitalism to work a connection between consumers and products(and their devs) has to exist ... you are mixing friendship with consumer-seller connection
Generic
Member
Two more weeks until EA becomes bankrupt.
It's working since videogames have never been more popular.
Generic
Member
He's entitled to his opinion, just like people are entitled to dislike the game.
This will never happen, or let's say as long as they have sports games they are completely safe. EA has not received large profits from games for a long time, the company's main revenue comes from microtransactions.
70% of all EA revenue is fees for subscription and microtransactions. Well, if you want to explain to people that it is enough to buy FIFA every year and donate thousands of dollars to it, you are welcome, if the revenue from microtransactions disappears then yes they will go under, but I think we all understand perfectly well that this will not happen.
ChorizoPicozo
Member
He is helping to sell the game instead of informing gamers.
Bernardougf
Member
If you think this consistent failures of AAA games from several devs/publishers we have seen just this year is par for the course and "games being more popular than ever" ... than you do you my friend we are seeing different things as the video.
YuLY
Gold Member
Define fine...is 1 mil fine for a game in dev for 6-7years which had a total reboot ? I dont think so.
Also why point steam reviews but ignore the 3.8 User score on metacritic. And dont worry it will become Mixed very soon, you can bookmark this. It used to be 84% when they deleted some negative reviews in the first days on steam, now it sits at 71%, give it 2 weeks and it will be Mixed. That isnt a good reception, even reddit has turned against the game for the most part, the only people defending it are desperate lgbtq members since they feel they need to defend it for catering to them.
Veilguard is a failure.
FIREKNIGHT2029
Member
Nah, we aren't headed for an industry crash but we are definitely headed for a course correction and some big time Western studios are definitely gonna shut down if they keep making shitty agenda driven expensive games nobody wants.
Gaming is too big and too diverse of a market to crash like it did back in the day.
Gaming is too big and too diverse of a market to crash like it did back in the day.
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S0ULZB0URNE
Member
Nope just a company changing its business model and becoming 3rd party.
Mibu no ookami
Demoted Member® Pro™
GAF loves grifters who tell them that they're right.
semiconscious
Member
well, particularly when you consider the game it's the sequel to:
https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/U..._in_its_history_UPDATE_2:_Based_on_Units_Sold
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
I wasn't necessarily thinking of Japanese devs; more like Shift Up and Game Science, the team that did Lies Of P, etc.
Not to mention the PalWorld and Genshin-verse games...
And please, let's be real; very few titles released in any calendar year top 10m units, let-alone 25m like Elden Ring.
The expectation of hitting those sorts of numbers is frankly, a bad joke. The market simply isn't big enough. Especially without massive discounting on full-price titles.
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Bernardougf
Member
I think she struck a nerve in some purple ninjas hiding in the shadows
Efren is G.O.A.T.
Member
I just games to be games again and not "interactive movies/experiences"
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LavitzSlambert
Member
The echo chamber is definitely a problem. It doesn't help that you wait on average 5 years to find out if you made the right decisions. However, a significant part of the industry is doing great and I would argue are thriving. This doesn't look like an industry collapse to me. Some thoughts on a few issues that is happening to mid to large sized Western devs:
1. Gaming has gone full corporate. This is the fundamental problem, MBAs have taken over just like the movie and music industries. You can see what happens to creative output once this happens time and time again. The decisions are made by committee or upper management, which is typically far enough away from the actual creatives working on the game. And once a game's formula is a "proven" success, they will iterate on it until it fails spectacularly. The only language these guys understand is money, so it takes a financial disaster like Concord to wake them up or they will keep trying again and again.
2. Most games are entirely derivative of other, better games. Even the creative types are at fault here. It comes from a good place, "wow I loved _____ and I want to create something like that!" But what happens is a new game is created that doesn't really do anything new, why not just play the original game it's copying? God forbid it's actually a worse game overall. The question should be "why would people want to play this game?" instead of "why aren't people buying this game we created?" There is competition between new games and old ones, and even other leisure time activities. If there isn't a reason for people to choose your game over another use of their time, it will fall flat on its face.
3. Nearly all dev teams are far too ambitious in terms of game scope, especially visual fidelity. To me, this is a problem directly related to issue #1. The metrics they shoot for are making the game look incredible, and making the game last a long time to increase perceived value per dollar spent. Not every game can be a AAA masterpiece, just like not every game can have a huge open world like Skyrim. There is room for games of all scales, from a short and addicting puzzle game to sprawling open RPGs, and everything in between. Reducing the scope here would cost significantly less, and despite what people claim, I don't think they'd care so long as the game is still good.
4. These companies are chasing mainstream and fair-weather gamers and including those players in their metrics for follow up titles and sequels. You can't count on this audience to show up time and time again. Go ask Nintendo what happened with the Wii, or ask Microsoft about Halo. You can't assume the previous game's playerbase will show up.
5. The cheap money from near-zero interest rate policy has dried up, and all of the risk taking and temporary "growth" we saw from COVID has come back down to earth. We are seeing the end result of loose monetary policy and how inefficient companies were when they scaled up their teams. The downswing is here and I think it's a pretty natural result when you see how expensive it is to make games contrasted with how much people are actually spending, and what they are spending their money on.
1. Gaming has gone full corporate. This is the fundamental problem, MBAs have taken over just like the movie and music industries. You can see what happens to creative output once this happens time and time again. The decisions are made by committee or upper management, which is typically far enough away from the actual creatives working on the game. And once a game's formula is a "proven" success, they will iterate on it until it fails spectacularly. The only language these guys understand is money, so it takes a financial disaster like Concord to wake them up or they will keep trying again and again.
2. Most games are entirely derivative of other, better games. Even the creative types are at fault here. It comes from a good place, "wow I loved _____ and I want to create something like that!" But what happens is a new game is created that doesn't really do anything new, why not just play the original game it's copying? God forbid it's actually a worse game overall. The question should be "why would people want to play this game?" instead of "why aren't people buying this game we created?" There is competition between new games and old ones, and even other leisure time activities. If there isn't a reason for people to choose your game over another use of their time, it will fall flat on its face.
3. Nearly all dev teams are far too ambitious in terms of game scope, especially visual fidelity. To me, this is a problem directly related to issue #1. The metrics they shoot for are making the game look incredible, and making the game last a long time to increase perceived value per dollar spent. Not every game can be a AAA masterpiece, just like not every game can have a huge open world like Skyrim. There is room for games of all scales, from a short and addicting puzzle game to sprawling open RPGs, and everything in between. Reducing the scope here would cost significantly less, and despite what people claim, I don't think they'd care so long as the game is still good.
4. These companies are chasing mainstream and fair-weather gamers and including those players in their metrics for follow up titles and sequels. You can't count on this audience to show up time and time again. Go ask Nintendo what happened with the Wii, or ask Microsoft about Halo. You can't assume the previous game's playerbase will show up.
5. The cheap money from near-zero interest rate policy has dried up, and all of the risk taking and temporary "growth" we saw from COVID has come back down to earth. We are seeing the end result of loose monetary policy and how inefficient companies were when they scaled up their teams. The downswing is here and I think it's a pretty natural result when you see how expensive it is to make games contrasted with how much people are actually spending, and what they are spending their money on.
kruis
Exposing the sinister cartel of retailers who allow companies to pay for advertising space.
You clearly didn't watch the video. Laura Fryer is an industry professional, worked as an executive producer/general manager at MS/WB/Epic and completely avoided politics in her 13 minute video.
Laura Fryer - MobyGames
On 18th October 2012 it was announced Laura Fryer had been appointed general manager of the Seattle division of Epic Games, Inc. to oversee all work on the fourth version of the Unreal engine. Previously on 12th February 2009 she had been appointed...
www.mobygames.com
Plague Doctor
Member
You clearly didn't watch the video. Laura Fryer is an industry professional, worked as an executive producer/general manager at MS/WB/Epic and completely avoided politics in her 13 minute video.
Laura Fryer - MobyGames
On 18th October 2012 it was announced Laura Fryer had been appointed general manager of the Seattle division of Epic Games, Inc. to oversee all work on the fourth version of the Unreal engine. Previously on 12th February 2009 she had been appointed...
Haven't you heard? Everyone critical of AAA pubs and devs and their decisions is by definition a grifter and should be silenced and discredited. Always.
Especially if it's my favorite pub or dev.
Bernardougf
Member
Or if its touching subjects you dont want to be touched or mentioned.
ShadyAcshuns
Member
AAA crash is already happening, and it's glorious.
ChorizoPicozo
Member
i think the point of the video focuses in the dynamic between the game developer/Publisher and how the game is sold (Marketing/PR/Media/Influencers)
it is clear as she states, that the bubble in which game devs/Publishers and media have created is clashing with gamers/consumers.
what you wrote, while insightful is missing the real issue of this topic:
The antagonistic attitude between parties is creating an environment where specific videogames (let's call them games under the "studio system") are being damage as both industry and medium.
ProtoByte
Weeb Underling
I don't think it's clashing, so much as increased disinterest and lack of enthusiasm.
She's got the media problem down pat, but she doesn't talk about the Reddit and discord culture that surrounds a lot of these games. The Twitch problem is also another can of worms. Devs are getting plenty of feedback from consumers and pretty directly, but there's still this problem.
If Dragon Age took out all of the weird political shit, it still would've sucked. For example, Gotham Knights had literally zero political shit, and still sucked. They had a discord for that game where developers were consistently posting. The media were not particularly kind to the game during the marketing campaign. It's not to say that the political thought inside BioWare's or Firewalk's offices didn't have an impact in serious ways, but again, I don't think constant, mass focus testing is the answer either.
In the 90s and early 2000s, devs had next to no channels with gamers or an interested journalist class. They got on just fine.
existensmaximum
Member
No it's not. Look the word up. I don't understand how so many people don't know what that word means.
IAmRei
Member
western AAA/AAAA crash, might be, almost likely, not all, but we saw many.
but yeah, the world is not only west...
in the east, they are bigger now, some are fall, but not many.
we might never see full scale Game Crash, since it's already too big to be fall.
partial crash, i think...
but yeah, the world is not only west...
in the east, they are bigger now, some are fall, but not many.
we might never see full scale Game Crash, since it's already too big to be fall.
partial crash, i think...
JerryinSoCal
Member
People need to get off of social media, that's how all of these things have formed. If twitter, facebook, IG, TikTok and all of the rest of it shut down tomorrow the world would be better for it. Yeah a bunch of celebs and corporations would be upset that their "free" advertising went away and a bunch of people with fake jobs that they only have because of how they look would need to start going through the want ads but we'd all be better for it in the long run.
ChorizoPicozo
Member
it is the opposite, gamers are more interested and enthusiastic than ever. Gamers are the ones doing marhatonic video essays, analysis, commentary. some gamers are even more popular than media outlets.
that is what she is saying: Devs are not listening to gamers.
yet IGN gave it 9/10. That is the point she is making.
she also talks about that. Games are hard to make, success is not a guarantee and if a game fails it's not the gamer's fault
her entire video focuses on the dynamic between developers/publishers and the media. The beginning of the video recaps how the industry evolved and how this problem came to be.
ChorizoPicozo
Member
so... only listen to the IGNs and industry "professionals and pundits"? How ironic is it that the one who raised the issue about the Vanguard review codes was a YouTuber...
the premise of her entire video is about the close relationship between devs/publisher and media/journalists
ProtoByte
Weeb Underling
They're making money from that coverage just the same. Do you think Destiny streamers are any better as a check against Bungie?
ChorizoPicozo
Member
did you watch the video in the OP?
Heisenberg007
Gold Journalism
It will correct itself. That's the beauty of capitalism and businesses. They will take a u-turn if we hit their bottom line and profitability.
ProtoByte
Weeb Underling
Yes. My point is that it's oversimplified to say "well, listen to gamers".
Da1337Vinci
Member
I just want more booth babes back
ChorizoPicozo
Member
she explains how devs/Publishers implemented their old school modus operandi to the youtube era of influencers/access media/shills too. (which obviously include twitch streamers too)
and now you are oversimplifying what she is saying. is not "well, listen to gamers". listen again.
Northeastmonk
Gold Member
She made more sense than that other guy who said it was an incel victory against Ubisoft. Lol
That “offline 360” comment still makes me cringe. That guy is a rich game industry veteran and he’s telling people to go play the 360 instead because it’s an offline device.
Looking back on it now. The whole E3 thing was a showboat. You could easily attract people who didn’t care about video games in the first place. You could also take things seriously because the industry kept delivering new stuff.
Now a days, having content creators and these social media outlets fool consumers by shouting the same banter is just as bad.
Dragon Age wasn’t a return to form. lol it would have played more like Baldur’s Gate 3 had it returned to form. So some of these journalists are sniffing farts to get more games from the industry.
That “offline 360” comment still makes me cringe. That guy is a rich game industry veteran and he’s telling people to go play the 360 instead because it’s an offline device.
Looking back on it now. The whole E3 thing was a showboat. You could easily attract people who didn’t care about video games in the first place. You could also take things seriously because the industry kept delivering new stuff.
Now a days, having content creators and these social media outlets fool consumers by shouting the same banter is just as bad.
Dragon Age wasn’t a return to form. lol it would have played more like Baldur’s Gate 3 had it returned to form. So some of these journalists are sniffing farts to get more games from the industry.
Hypereides
Gold Member
She's spot on about the industry having become a secluded bubble. And its at a point where its going to get detrimental if they persist down this road.
AAA developers need to circumvent the gaming press and start conversing directly with the community. Let me just emphasize I do not suggest that consumers should become part of the development team themselves, however they need to lend their ear to what they have to say. I'd even go so far as to say that western AAA is struggling right now exactly because they were too lax and started to invite non-creative people (consumers and journos) into their hierarchies.
They may do themselves a favour by returning to and embracing a little bit of that "underground" geeky culture they once nurtured across the industry.
AAA developers need to circumvent the gaming press and start conversing directly with the community. Let me just emphasize I do not suggest that consumers should become part of the development team themselves, however they need to lend their ear to what they have to say. I'd even go so far as to say that western AAA is struggling right now exactly because they were too lax and started to invite non-creative people (consumers and journos) into their hierarchies.
They may do themselves a favour by returning to and embracing a little bit of that "underground" geeky culture they once nurtured across the industry.
Well put.
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The artful mincer
Member
No of course the industry is not gonna crash don't be so fucking stupid.
Look at this list
companiesmarketcap.com
Nearly 140 companies are profitable this year.
And I sure as fuck have not got time to watch another idiot online cry about woke or videogames companies being mean to "gamers". Get a life if you don't like a game or company don't buy from them.
Look at this list
Top publicly traded video game companies by earnings
companiesmarketcap.com
Nearly 140 companies are profitable this year.
And I sure as fuck have not got time to watch another idiot online cry about woke or videogames companies being mean to "gamers". Get a life if you don't like a game or company don't buy from them.
panda-zebra
Member
Industry crash? Urgh, no. That was simply the wrong question to pose alongside this (pretty amazing) video and has largely steered the conversation in a pointless direction, which is a shame.
No, the sky isn't falling, the industry isn't crashing over what seems to be an increasingly unhealthy relationship between publishers/devs and the media, but it is going to - has to - correct for the benefit of everyone involved from the creators to the players and everyone in between (except for, maybe, the distrustful pseudo-celebrity, leeching tentacles of the media, lol - just how many times have we seen these types go on to secure a position at these companies taking fat cheques and pensions for their services? Too fucking many).
Truth is, worthwhile discussion on these topics often gets utterly fucked and becomes impossible. It's too easy for those who have a vested interested in retaining the status quo, or some other personal agenda, to point fingers and label anyone and everyone a 'gator' when it comes to this subject in order to shut things down. Doesn't help when social media parasites are hopping on the bandwagon for their own self interest, polluting the waters, and making it too easy to place targets on the backs of anyone who dares questions things as everyone gets tarred with the same brush.
Just look at the pushback on the whole "return to form" thing recently; as thoughtfully and honestly as it was highlighted in this video by a near 30 year veteran of the industry - some who knows and shows the way things are now and the way things were back then, from a first hand perspective - it'll never get nearly the same attention, or the attention it deserves, when there's an army of social media grifters nuking any worthwhile conversation by jumping in with both feet, voices raised in anger, raving on for the clicks and the increased bank balance as ammo in their futile 'wars' that only seeks to harden opinion on either siade rather than get to the meat of the issue for the good of the medium - and that's what we're all supposed to be here for, right?
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Laptop1991
Member
I'm not sure what anyone classes as a crash, but the sales are a lot lower than the industry is making out and they must know before these games are released they are going to be, i've just read here on GAF that Stalker had A life 2.0 advertised in the game a week before it released and now it's revealed, it's not there, they have no excuse not to know this and are doing these things on purpose, so it's their own fault in the end, anyway good video by Laura, and i agree with her take.
PeteBull
Member
Lemme put it this way- when many western studios(and some non western too) put out woke shit games of much lower quality vs previous ones in the series ( can name so many examples, but lets go with DA:V, Saints Row, Battlefront, Suicide Squad), or invest hundreds of milions of usd into games no1 wants(concord is prime example, but there are more, just they arent as flashy flops, still big time flops too)- ofc they gonna get punished by market for doing their job in a terrible way, that is good thing.
When sony launches ps5pr0 at crazy price(not talking 700usd/80usd discdrive, coz thats in the States and there its good deal, in all other countries its so much worse) and it gets discounts first week and gets oversold by ps portal- again market response is solid to what those companies offer- bad deal to consumer.
Im happy talented and sane devs gets rewarded with great sales, again- proof is in the pudding- sony trying to buy kadokawa/from software is not coz they suck, but coz they see unprecedented quality of the products just like all of us-players.
Black Myth Wukong selling 20m+ and making 1bilion usd in revenue at a game budget of 300m yuan( 43m usd) is what is very healthy for the industry.
There are many devs outside of woke and expensive western studios, who are at least as talented, if not more, let them shine, let the western devs go back to what they used to be, or simply nature gonna take its course- gaming business is cruel- its survival of the fittest despite all the lies some ppl keep telling u, u wont get brownie points for making ur game woke except from sellout reviewers which in the end dont mean much
ND from sony dropped the ball hard this gen too- no new game and its already 4 years of current gen, since we didnt even get fake cgi trailer yet its obvious earlies they gonna give us something is 2026, which is pure diseaster.
Rockstar is my last bastion of hope for big western studios, if GTA6 fails, then we can talk about some kind of industry recession, otherwise its just correction for stupid devs/pubs behaviour.
When sony launches ps5pr0 at crazy price(not talking 700usd/80usd discdrive, coz thats in the States and there its good deal, in all other countries its so much worse) and it gets discounts first week and gets oversold by ps portal- again market response is solid to what those companies offer- bad deal to consumer.
Im happy talented and sane devs gets rewarded with great sales, again- proof is in the pudding- sony trying to buy kadokawa/from software is not coz they suck, but coz they see unprecedented quality of the products just like all of us-players.
Black Myth Wukong selling 20m+ and making 1bilion usd in revenue at a game budget of 300m yuan( 43m usd) is what is very healthy for the industry.
There are many devs outside of woke and expensive western studios, who are at least as talented, if not more, let them shine, let the western devs go back to what they used to be, or simply nature gonna take its course- gaming business is cruel- its survival of the fittest despite all the lies some ppl keep telling u, u wont get brownie points for making ur game woke except from sellout reviewers which in the end dont mean much
ND from sony dropped the ball hard this gen too- no new game and its already 4 years of current gen, since we didnt even get fake cgi trailer yet its obvious earlies they gonna give us something is 2026, which is pure diseaster.
Rockstar is my last bastion of hope for big western studios, if GTA6 fails, then we can talk about some kind of industry recession, otherwise its just correction for stupid devs/pubs behaviour.
dragonyeuw
Member
By connection I'm assuming they mean the communication and expectations between developer and player. If the companies are pushing their own agendas and not listening to those paying them, that's a breakdown in the relationship.
Humdinger
Gold Member
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