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[Tabris]

Once again, to be on record, I prefer the GBA. My picture proves that point.

 

[The Abominable Snowman]

You should have quoted the complete sentence : You certianly don't have to hide the fact that you prefer the PSP, however misguided that position may be. Sorry I just wanted to have a little fun. I take it back. you're not misguided.

I was talking about that general mindset. Responses like that are a dime a dozen.

 

[The Abominable Snowman]

The DS is also beating the PSP in Europe, and in American it's at least ahead by 300K+ by now.

Give me proof.

And nice of you to be living in the future, where you can see next month's NPD.

Or are you just predicting that because the DS sold 140K in one weekend the PSP ceased to sell and the DS caught on here like it did in Japan.

But whatever.

Edit: Whoops! I'm so used to other forums merging the responses

 

[starship]

This is the bullshit that I take offense to.

Yes, the DS is beating the PSP sales-wise in 2 of the 3 major territories, in Japan by 5 million and in America by 100K, more or less.

However, to say that you're misguided because you like the PSP better than the DS is EXTREMELY misguided. That's like the highest in jackass-ery.

Aside that, we'd need some numbers from other territories as well, as much or as few as they'd account to being. Both handhelds have a very bright future, that's for sure. If Sony would actually market the PSP, it'd be much brighter for the black sexy device.

DS is ahead of PSP in Europe by more than 1m and with the release of DS Lite the gap will only widen.

 

[edwardslane]

Pokemon + ff3 + tales! Fun sales charts ahead for the DS

 

[soundwave05]

Is Nintendogs they first multi-million Nintendo seller in all three major territories that's sold the most in Europe?

No wonder Nintendo is starting to give Europe some more emphasis with the DS. First to get the black DS Lite, Nintendogs Dalmation edition, etc.

 

[The Abominable Snowman]

DS is ahead of PSP in Europe by more than 1m and with the release of DS Lite the gap will only widen.

Again, proof?

The only numbers we have are for the end of '05.

And IIRC Nintendo said they passed the 1m barrier.

 

[Matt]

Give me proof.

And nice of you to be living in the future, where you can see next month's NPD.

Or are you just predicting that because the DS sold 140K in one weekend the PSP ceased to sell and the DS caught on here like it did in Japan.

But whatever.

Edit: Whoops! I'm so used to other forums merging the responses

I don’t have proof off the top of my head, but it has been well established. Someone else I’m sure can provide it.

As for June sales of the DS, the DS sold in 2 days almost what PSP sold in the whole month before it. All reports have been that the DS Lite has continued to sell very well after the launch, and I have not personally see the DS or DS Lite in stock (and I have been in at least 20 different stores that sell them, repeatedly) since 2 days after the DS Lite launched. Normally I don’t fall in with this anecdotal evidence, but I have never seen this before, even after the 360 came out. If you think that the DS has not widened it’s lead over the PSP this month, I can’t possibly understand why.

 

[Deku]

I was talking about that general mindset. Responses like that are a dime a dozen.

I wasn't a dime a dozen when I first mentioned my disappointment with the PSP. And really it's just that disappointment. Expect there was this thing called the DS which kept on giving and I went from being indifferent in the beginning to actually liking it a lot which is reflected in my posts.

Owning a PSP on the other hand is basically what a Sony platfortm would feel like if Sony is 2nd place. 3rd parties will sitll love to develop for it because there's few 1st party titles to compete against, but the depth of the library just isn't there.

The GTA crowd had their GTA last fall, and Socom got their Socom. I can't help but feel this is reminiscent of the N64 type nostalgia/frachise driven strategy. Where PSP boosters are subtly encouraged to hold out hope on the premise that PS2 had GTA (or insert beloved franchise here) and it destroyed the competition. PSP has GTA (beloved franchise). Therefore PSP will win. I see that unstated premise all the time on GAF. Not so much recently, but it was there not too long ago.


PS though, for the last 10 years at least have been a big tent console. it had to be. it was so dominant. I never cared much for MGS, GTA, Socom my interest as a gamer are elsewhere, and those games just aren't being made on the PSP.

When I made that comment which set you off, it was also tongue in cheek. I didn't really mean to offend, but you clearly was offend. so I apologize. That said, no matter how you want to spin it, the PSP does not hold a candle to its two bigger brothers software wise. It has games (PSP supporters still use the no games strawman from last year when it really didn't have any games) but it has games like the N64 had games.

 

[cvxfreak]

Gaybrush, who works for NOE, mentioned the DS doing better in Europe than the US.

He's probably right considering Nintendogs was most popular there, with over 2 Million sold there.

 

[Rock_Man]

Looks like Winning Eleven 10 will reach a million now.

 

[soundwave05]

Looks like Winning Eleven 10 will reach a million now.

Yeah it's definitely getting a World Cup boost.

 

[cvxfreak]

Question this: are the best selling systems always the best ones?

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

If I am not mistaken, DSL is beating DS record, for the first 15 weeks sales since launch. Is that correct ?

That is correct, and I don't see that changing anytime soon. If I were to add yet another line in the style of my other comparisons...

Time for DS to reach 2.20M: 22 weeks

Here's one of my chart types that still needs definite prettying up, but this compares the growing sum of DS and DSL at their respective launches: http://joshuajamesslone.name/gamech...date1=2004-11-29&system2=dsl&date2=2006-02-27

Do you have the figure for the first 15 weeks of GBA ?

I do not. If you check this thread you can pretty much see the totality of Media Create numbers I have. Media Create didn't even start doing weekly tracking until 2002. ioi's meta-estimation, though, has GBA at 2.29 million after 15 weeks.

 

[apujanata]

Owning a PSP on the other hand is basically what a Sony platfortm would feel like if Sony is 2nd place. 3rd parties will sitll love to develop for it because there's few 1st party titles to compete against, but the depth of the library just isn't there.

Interesting. So you thought that Nintendo's 1st party titles is part to blame for 3rd parties developer reluctance to develop title for Nintendo platform (beside the fact that Gamecube and N64 are not selling well, compared to PS2 and PS1) ?

 

[The Abominable Snowman]

I don’t have proof off the top of my head, but it has been well established. Someone else I’m sure can provide it.

Well, tell me when someone has it, because I've searched and couldn't find anything

As for June sales of the DS, the DS sold in 2 days almost what PSP sold in the whole month before it. All reports have been that the DS Lite has continued to sell very well after the launch, and I have not personally see the DS or DS Lite in stock (and I have been in at least 20 different stores that sell them, repeatedly) since 2 days after the DS Lite launched. Normally I don’t fall in with this anecdotal evidence, but I have never seen this before, even after the 360 came out. If you think that the DS has not widened it’s lead over the PSP this month, I can’t possibly understand why.

Of course I think the DS has sold better than it had previously with the DS lite release, but I also feel that it's been drastically overstated. Again, all we have to go off of until July ~10th is anecdotal evidence, and as this forum has proven again and again and again, all the anecdotal evidence in the world can come up to be flat out wrong.

I say wait until an NPD forecast or analysis comes about before making grandoise predictions.

I wasn't a dime a dozen when I first mentioned my disappointment with the PSP. And really it's just that. Owning a PSP is basically what a Sony platfortm would feel like if Sony is 2nd place. 3rd parties will sitll love to develop for it because there's few 1st party titles to compete against, but the depth of the library just isn't there.

The GTA crowd had their GTA last fall, and Socom got their Socom. I can't help but feel this is reminiscent of the N64 type nostalgia/frachise driven strategy. Not that its bad. for some people the games will suit them just fine and their PS2 favorites are on the PSP.

That's your Personal Experience (tm). That's fine, but that's not applying to everyone. It's far from fact.

Gaybrush, who works for NOE, mentioned the DS doing better in Europe than the US.

He's probably right considering Nintendogs was most popular there, with over 2 Million sold there.

Yeah, but I kinda doubt that he meant in fact. Probably relatively, because the DS outsold in one month in the US what the DS had until ~March 06 (When Nintendo announced they had sold a million in Europe)

 

[soundwave05]

If you're Nintendo this is definitely your chance to move on the PSP.

Sony I think kinda has had their chance to pull away in the US, and they really haven't taken it. Sure they outsell the DS by 20k some months (other months not) ... but that really doesn't cut it.

With DS production ramping up to 2 million/month, they are probably looking to go $99.99 in North America and the equivalent in Europe as well this fall.

The GBA is finally going to be phased out as well, as you can see from it's production numbers that Nintendo has given for the fall/end fiscal 2006.

Japan is in the bag, now with the DS lite, it's definitely time for Nintendo to make their move in North America, especailly as Sony seems more preoccupied with the PS3.

 

[Deku]

That's your Personal Experience (tm). That's fine, but that's not applying to everyone. It's far from fact.

I made a joke... and it was a tongue in cheek joke. what more do you want.

Interesting. So you thought that Nintendo's 1st party titles is part to blame for 3rd parties developer reluctance to develop title for Nintendo platform (beside the fact that Gamecube and N64 are not selling well, compared to PS2 and PS1) ?

that's just a fact. An observed fact.

 

[Matt]

Yeah, but I kinda doubt that he meant in fact. Probably relatively, because the DS outsold in one month in the US what the DS had until ~March 06 (When Nintendo announced they had sold a million in Europe)

Your information is completely wrong. The DS came out in Europe on March 14th, 2005. On June 27th, 2005, Nintendo announced that is had sold 1 million units in Europe.

 

[Deku]

Your information is completely wrong. The DS came out in Europe on March 14th, 2005. On June 27th, 2005, Nintendo announced that is had sold 1 million units in Europe.

What's it's LTD in Euroland ?

 

[GaimeGuy]

Pokemon + Price drop to $99 = DS finally inherits the GBA userbase in Europe and NA.

 

[The Abominable Snowman]

Your information is completely wrong. The DS came out in Europe on March 14th, 2005. On June 27th, 2005, Nintendo announced that is had sold 1 million units in Europe.

Ah, OK. Well ~March 06 was when I had first heard that confirmed.

But even still, I think that's a little past pushing it that soon if the year end UK figures were something like .95m. So the DS would have had to really hit it off in the other regions to have really hit that figure that soon.

 

[Matt]

What's it's LTD in Euroland ?

Best I can find so far is a little past 3.5 million at the end of 2005. So I would guss about 4.7 million by now.

But even still, I think that's a little past pushing it that soon if the year end UK figures were something like .95m. So the DS would have had to really hit it off in the other regions to have really hit that figure that soon.

Well, that’s exactly what it did. And pushing what? These numbers are facts.

 

[The Abominable Snowman]

Best I can find so far is a little past 3.5 million at the end of 2005. So I would guss about 4.7 million by now.

Well, that’s exactly what it did. And pushing what? These numbers are facts.

So where have you gotten the 1m lead from? SCEE press says they've sold "almost 4m" units across European territories and shipped almost 5m, as of May. You predict the DS sold ~4.7m in Europe now. That's a 700K hypothetical gap, not a million.

 

[Matt]

Best I can find so far is a little past 3.5 million at the end of 2005. So I would guss about 4.7 million by now.

Well, that’s exactly what it did. And pushing what? These numbers are facts.

Scratch that. According to Nintendo’s latest financial report, the DS sold 4.71 million unites through the end on March ’07 in all territories other then Japan and the Americas. So that would be about 4.6 million units in Europe by the end of March of this year.

So, I don’t know, 5.1 million so far?

 

[Matt]

So where have you gotten the 1m lead from? SCEE press says they've sold "almost 4m" units across European territories and shipped almost 5m, as of May. You predict the DS sold ~4.7m in Europe now. That's a 700K hypothetical gap, not a million.

Look at my new post above.

 

[The Abominable Snowman]

Scratch that. According to Nintendo’s latest financial report, the DS sold 4.71 million unites through the end on March ’07 in all territories other then Japan and the Americas. So that would be about 4.6 million units in Europe by the end of March of this year.

So, I don’t know, 5.1 million so far?

Between Australia, which already throws shade to "out of 4.71m, 4.6m is from Europe" (Since Aussie sales rack in over 225K for the DS to June 4th), Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Canada, and other non-European major game markets, you think only 110K would have sold outside Europe, US, and Japan?

 

[Matt]

Between Australia, which already throws shade to "out of 4.71m, 4.6m is from Europe" (Since Aussie sales rack in over 225K for the DS to June 4th), Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Canada, and other non-European major game markets, you think only 110K would have sold outside Europe, US, and Japan?

I don’t know where you get the 225k for DS in Australia from, but, ok, let’s say 4.5 million for Europe though March ’06. I’m still keeping my guess of 5.1 million sold so far.

Canada is included with “the Americas.” And as for Korea, Taiwan, and Hong Kong, those numbers would be very, very small, and impossible to calculate (has the DS even launched in all these regions?)

 

[apujanata]

Based on the info :
PSP : SCEE : Europe : almost 4 Million (as of May 2006), from Abominable Snowman
NDS : Nintendo : Europe + Rest of the World : 4.61 Million (as of March 06), from Matt
If the sales of Rest of the World is 300K - 500K (Australia is 225K or more), then :
AT BEST : NDS lead PSP by 100K or more, as of March 2006
AT WORST : NDS lead PSP by 400K or more, as of March 2006.

Anyway you slice or dice the data (assuming it is accurate), DS is leading PSP in Europe.

 

[starship]

Between Australia, which already throws shade to "out of 4.71m, 4.6m is from Europe" (Since Aussie sales rack in over 225K for the DS to June 4th), Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Canada, and other non-European major game markets, you think only 110K would have sold outside Europe, US, and Japan?

You are so annoying.
Canada is considered in NA.
Taiwan, Hong Kong, Korea are non-existent for DS. (they have very little impact)
DS is ahead of PSP in all European countries including the UK which is usually mentioned as anti-Nintendo or Sonyland.
The gaps in France and Germany are huge.

 

[gconsole]

You are so annoying.
Canada is considered in NA.
Taiwan, Hong Kong, Korea are non-existent for DS. (they have very little impact)
DS is ahead of PSP in all European countries including the UK which is usually mentioned as anti-Nintendo or Sonyland.
The gaps in France and Germany are huge.

DS and PSP market in asia pacific is bigger than you imagine. Almost of them are imported from both japan and NA, that is where their sale number came from

 

[Matt]

DS and PSP market in asia pacific is bigger than you imagine. Almost of them are imported from both japan and NA, there is where their sale number come from

Well then, their numbers would be counted in Japan and North America, respectfully, and therefore wouldn’t make a difference in the context in this discussion.

 

[starship]

DS and PSP market in asia pacific is bigger than you imagine. Almost of them are imported from both japan and NA, that is where their sale number came from

Yeah, I know buddy.
Those sales are considered in NA and Japan/Asia sales figures.

 

[Lapsed]

Oh, this is delightful. The responses of the Sony fans remind me of the N64 fans back in the day.

My last gaming console was a SNES, so perhaps my perspective comes from someone who hasn't been 'engaged' in the hobby for so long. The real issue here isn't the DS sales numbers. The issue is that the Sony fans' sense of reality is being challenged.

Guys, try to look at it from a Sony's fan perspective. They thought Nintendo was dead, that Nintendo was for little kids. They thought that if any 'threat' could challenge Sony, it would come from something like Microsoft. All those Nintendo fans who kept wishing and hoping out loud that Nintendo would 'return' were easily mocked. These sales numbers are a serious challenge to their reality of Sony forever-dominance. No wonder I keep hearing the word 'Nintendo fanboy' being used as a smear on anyone marveling about this sudden shift in the market in Japan (and perhaps America and Europe soon as well).

The merit of these sales pages is that it keeps us bounded to reality. There are people out there who live in a certain myth about their chosen console. For example, Xbox fans are stunned when I tell them the Xbox 360 flopped in Japan. I thought everyone knew that. Oh well...

Sony fans are going to have to adjust to the reality that Sony may not be as dominant as before (and there is a possibility that the PS3 will not win the console war). And frankly, I think it is ridiculous for a Sony fan to complain about 'nongames' (which are video games) that lead to the high sales of the DS without mentioning that the PSP sells primarily as a digital movie player (which has no relation to the video game industry).

But with the upcoming shifts, I think the Xbox fans are going to be hit by reality the hardest. The Xbox sold around twenty million units and is declared by them to be an 'amazing success'. The Gamecube sold around twenty million units and is declared by them to be a 'spectacular failure'. WTF? And Halo 2 is considered by them to be 'insanely popular' yet it hasn't outsold the N64 game of Goldeneye 007. Heck, Nintendogs will probably outsell Halo 2.

My point is that these sales numbers are the antidote to the disease of fanboyism. It keeps people closer to reality and doesn't let them dream, as I have heard some Xbox fans on other forums say "the Xbox 360 is selling better than the PS2 at a similar time! What an amazing success!" :lol

Nintendo fans are guilty too, of course, but they have tasted the bitter cup the longest. Not everything Nintendo is doing has been successful. Some 'non-games' have bombed such as Electroplankton. The Gameboy Micro also is considered a failure to Nintendo.

It is quite delicious to watch the bitter cup be passed to Sony fans who thought the dominance of the PS1 and PS2 meant it would continue with PSP and PS3. It still might but that is definately not assured.

 

[demi]

I thought you didn't like BG&E... LIAR

Sell/Trade me your Breath of Fire II btw

 

[Matt]

Nintendo fans are guilty too, of course, but they have tasted the bitter cup the longest. Not everything Nintendo is doing has been successful. Some 'non-games' have bombed such as Electroplankton. The Gameboy Micro also is considered a failure to Nintendo.

As a point of fact, I doubt Electroplankton can be considered a “bomb,” considering how little resources were put into it (wasn’t it like basically one guy over a couple of months?) And the same for GameBoy Micro, Nintendo always said it was a limited-time thing, and its sale’s weren’t THAT bad.

 

[The Abominable Snowman]

I'm annoying? Whatever kia. You weren't part of this conversation either way, and what you posted had little relevancy to what was already posted. Thanks for the attack, though.

My argument wasn't even as to whether the DS was leading Europe (because I'm sure it is), but we're going off assumptions and made up data for everything outside the US and Japan, with some sparse details on other territories like Europe, Canada (Bi-monthly I think?), Australia, South Korea, and whatnot.

Matt: GFK Australia, the media sales tracker for Australia and New Zealand I think, had noted the DS selling 227K units through June 4th

 

[Matt]

I'm annoying? Whatever kia. You weren't part of this conversation either way, and what you posted had little relevancy to what was already posted. Thanks for the attack, though.

My argument wasn't even as to whether the DS was leading Europe (because I'm sure it is), but we're going off assumptions and made up data for everything outside the US and Japan, with some sparse details on other territories like Europe, Canada (Bi-monthly I think?), Australia, South Korea, and whatnot.

Matt: GFK Australia, the media sales tracker for Australia and New Zealand I think, had noted the DS selling 227K units through June 4th

OK, cool, I trust you. So would you agree that now my numbers are (at least) probably as close as they can be to accurate?

 

[The Abominable Snowman]

OK, cool, I trust you. So would you agree that now my numbers are (at least) probably as close as they can be to accurate?

I still think they're guessimates. Akin to the monthly NPD prediction threads, so I wouldn't say close to accurate...

 

[Matt]

I still think they're guessimates. Akin to the monthly NPD prediction threads, so I wouldn't say close to accurate...

lol, ok, so what do YOU think the numbers are probably closest too?

 

[DefectiveReject]

i know for a fact that as of April the DS was selling far better in Europe than the USA, and that its installed base was (then) higher.
Hence why Europe has the Black DSlite and US doesn't. Hence why Europe has Nintendogs Dalmation and US doesn't.
Nintendo are expecting Europe to take off with the DSlite to massive proportions, i know many stores in my area that have BIG pre-orders for the DSlite (anecdotal FTW) but the turn around in the UK alone for Nintendo over Sony in game stores is massive.

And i believe GAME (Biggest UK game retail chain) has become an official partner with Nintendo on the launch of the DSlite, which is MASSIVE for Nintendo. You walk in stores now and the DS is moving to bigger areas of stores and closer to the front, its mainly DS and XBox360 and rows and rows many deep of UMD movies, which no one seems to be buying.!

 

[starship]

I'm annoying? Whatever kia. You weren't part of this conversation either way, and what you posted had little relevancy to what was already posted. Thanks for the attack, though.

My argument wasn't even as to whether the DS was leading Europe (because I'm sure it is), but we're going off assumptions and made up data for everything outside the US and Japan, with some sparse details on other territories like Europe, Canada (Bi-monthly I think?), Australia, South Korea, and whatnot.

Matt: GFK Australia, the media sales tracker for Australia and New Zealand I think, had noted the DS selling 227K units through June 4th

Ok, You know DS is ahead in Europe?

Yes, the DS is beating the PSP sales-wise in 2 of the 3 major territories, in Japan by 5 million and in America by 100K, more or less.

So what is the point of this?

 

[marvelharvey]

And i believe GAME (Biggest UK game retail chain) has become an official partner with Nintendo on the launch of the DSlite, which is MASSIVE for Nintendo. You walk in stores now and the DS is moving to bigger areas of stores and closer to the front, its mainly DS and XBox360 and rows and rows many deep of UMD movies, which no one seems to be buying.!

Hell has frozen over.

 

[NEC Avenue]

If PSP was the winner in Japan, you would be trolling every possible DS-Nintendo thread, just like you did in the past. Nintendo going third party, Nintendo sucks, etc ,etc,etc.

QFT! :lol

Hell has frozen over.

You gotta go where the money is.


Oh btw Tabris, please stop posting pictures of other peoples' game collections. :lol

 

[The Abominable Snowman]

lol, ok, so what do YOU think the numbers are probably closest too?

If we were to take shipment numbers, and look at the overhead (Pace of sales in known territories the devices had shipped to, which is what we have to go off of, basically), and subtract the sales of other major gaming territories, then we'd have a reasonably close number...

But that's a lot of Googling.

Ok, You know DS is ahead in Europe?

No, I am guessing the DS is, culled from what has been posted on that situation in the last 3 months. Same as everyone else is doing. Like dude is up there saying that the DS is doing better in Europe than US because they opted to release the black DS lite in Europe and Nintendogs sold better. That's a guess, even though he states it as fact.

So what is the point of this?

We don't have regularly updated and accurate numbers for any other major territory aside Japan and the US.

 

[Matt]

If we were to take shipment numbers, and look at the overhead (Pace of sales in known territories the devices had shipped to, which is what we have to go off of, basically), and subtract the sales of other major gaming territories, then we'd have a reasonably close number...

But that's a lot of Googling.


No, I am guessing the DS is, culled from what has been posted on that situation in the last 3 months. Same as everyone else is doing. Like dude is up there saying that the DS is doing better in Europe than US because they opted to release the black DS lite in Europe and Nintendogs sold better. That's a guess, even though he states it as fact.


We don't have regularly updated and accurate numbers for any other major territory aside Japan and the US.

…you just don’t want to admit I’m right

Well, frankly, what you are proposing we do is impossible. It does not matter the amount of Googleing, it’s just that Nintendo hasn’t released most of that information. So my guesstimates are the best we can possibly do, and, frankly, they are, AT MOST, off by a couple of hundred thousand either way.

And the DS HAS outsold the PSP in Europe so far. That’s not a guess, it’s a fact.

 

[marc^o^]

DS Lite is way too good not to sell insanely in the west as well. From now on, expect massive DS sales each monch in NA & EU.

 

[The Abominable Snowman]

…you just don’t want to admit I’m right

Well, frankly, what you are proposing we do is impossible. It does not matter the amount of Googleing, it’s just that Nintendo hasn’t released most of that information. So my guesstimates are the best we can possibly do, and, frankly, they are, AT MOST, off by a couple of hundred thousand either way.

No, dude, the information isn't out there. I could use your same argument and go "Well Sony shipped 5.94m outside the US and Japan, so xx amount went into Europe, so Sony is selling more in Europe"

But the information isn't factually there. So I won't say it as such. It'd be a gross misrepresentation of the facts if I were to say anything near that sort of stuff, because I'm making a hypothesis on what the sales stand as.

 

[Frankfurter]

Quite hilarious thread :lol

Remember, the PSP is still pretty much 50/50 with the DS worldwide.

PS2 outsells both of them worldwide and it's at the end of it's cycle. So unless DS can catch any steam in the other 2 markets it won't touch Sony.

Just like Microsoft will never be real competition to Sony/Nintendo because it can't touch the japanese market.

I know I'm a bit too late, but ... um ... :lol

 

[Matt]

No, dude, the information isn't out there. I could use your same argument and go "Well Sony shipped 5.94m outside the US and Japan, so xx amount went into Europe, so Sony is selling more in Europe"

But the information isn't factually there. So I won't say it as such. It'd be a gross misrepresentation of the facts if I were to say anything near that sort of stuff, because I'm making a hypothesis on what the sales stand as.

Point of fact, the PSP has sold very well in South Korea, so I could knock that argument out of the park pretty easily.

And I never said that my guesses were fact, just that they are the closest we can get at this point.