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[notseqi]

Because the PS5 Pro is a stopgap console, it's basically the PS5+ and not the PS6.

They should have made that clear, maybe by giving it a name that reflects that.

 

[Physiognomonics]

Yes! the most surprising albeit disappointing bit for Radeon cards is that the machine learning hardware used on PS5 Pro will be missing on RDNA4 and thus we'll have to wait for RDNA5/UDNA for FSR to implement AI upscaling

We do know RDNA4 will have improved ML hardware (compared to RDNA3). PS5 Pro is very likely using the same thing.

Examining AMD’s RDNA 4 Changes in LLVM

As 2024 continues on, because time never stops, AMD has been working on their upcoming RDNA 4 architecture.

chipsandcheese.com

 

[Loxus]

If its a RDNA4 feature why would he call the machine learning hardware custom? Seems like it was added to it and not present on the regular RDNA4 we'll see on the off the shelf cards

Notice that they used the word custom and not bespoke.

Custom refers to products or services made based on predetermined options, while bespoke involves creating something entirely unique from scratch.

Custom as in modifying an existing products to meet their needs. 60 CUs with two Shader Engines are referred to as custom since no other AMD RDNA GPU is similar.

 

[Physiognomonics]

Even so, the PS4 Pro had the CPU running at much higher frequency. Yes, PS5 Pro can technically run the CPU ever so slightly faster, with a very minor hit on GPU performance, but it's still basically the same which is disappointing. That, and the price of course.

The CPU will also have access to improved bandwidth, even without the 10%. And 1.5% less GPU is like nothing (tiny bit less GPU, but same bandwith), I expect most developers to select that setting. Sony makes it look like they have even more bandwith available than those 28% which is very probably true as they don't usually speak nonsense in their SDKs.

But I think their games should speak for themselves and they certainly are. For instance SM2 must be the game that hits the most the CPU and they don't have any problem to double the framerate using higher quality RT and added RT shadows which should require more CPU grunt. And the RT was already quite better in the 30fps mode. Honestly I didn't expect we already see such impressive showing in the case of SM2. I think that should already settle it about the CPU worries.

Notice that they used the word custom and not bespoke.

Custom refers to products or services made based on predetermined options, while bespoke involves creating something entirely unique from scratch.

Custom as in modifying an existing products to meet their needs. 60 CUs with two Shader Engines are referred to as custom since no other AMD RDNA GPU is similar.

Yes indeed. I think they will use some of the new ML instructions available in RDNA4 tech, but not all of them which they don't need. They probably mostly need that sweat int8 power for PSSR.

 

[Loxus]

Did you notice that the 3700X can output +100 fps in most games. Even Baldurs Gate gets an average of 80 fps.
For 60 fps, the Zen 2 on the PS5 Pro is well enough. The only exception is with really badly optimized games.

Would this apply to the GPU as well?

One could say the PS4 Pro is still GCN2 like the PS4 for BC purposes but with GCN5 features for better performance.

Would the PS5 Pro be still be RDNA2 for BC but with RDNA4 features?

Mark Cerny only mentioned it's larger with better RT and added AI capabilities.

Kinda like these tweets are suggesting.


You know about the PS5 RDNA1/2 hybrid architecture, so figure you would understand these tweets without going full PS fanboy defense mode.

 

[winjer]

Would this apply to the GPU as well?

One could say the PS4 Pro is still GCN2 like the PS4 for BC purposes but with GCN5 features for better performance.

Would the PS5 Pro be still be RDNA2 for BC but with RDNA4 features?

Mark Cerny only mentioned it's larger with better RT and added AI capabilities.

Kinda like these tweets are suggesting.


You know about the PS5 RDNA1/2 hybrid architecture, so figure you would understand these tweets without going full PS fanboy defense mode.

I have no idea. But I was a bit dismayed that Cerny didn't do a technical presentation for the Pro, like he did for the PS5.
Asides from a few theoretical throughput numbers, he didn't say anything about the hardware.

 

[Physiognomonics]

Would this apply to the GPU as well?

One could say the PS4 Pro is still GCN2 like the PS4 for BC purposes but with GCN5 features for better performance.

Would the PS5 Pro be still be RDNA2 for BC but with RDNA4 features?

Mark Cerny only mentioned it's larger with better RT and added AI capabilities.

Kinda like these tweets are suggesting.


You know about the PS5 RDNA1/2 hybrid architecture, so figure you would understand these tweets without going full PS fanboy defense mode.

That fanboy argues a lot about RDNA3. But PS5 Pro doesn't use RDNA3 at all. It uses RDNA3.5 + RT / ML from RDNA4. Viola should be a prototype of RDNA4 and should look nothing like RDNA3.

 

[Loxus]

That fanboy argues a lot about RDNA3. But PS5 Pro doesn't use RDNA3 at all. It uses RDNA3.5 + RT / ML from RDNA4. Viola should be a prototype of RDNA4 and should look nothing like RDNA3.

True but the point I'm making is they would still have to add BC into RDNA3.5 which is the main reason for not upgrading the CPU.

It's not like RDNA3.5 significantly boost performance. If they can stick with Zen2, they can stick RDNA2.

Upgrading the CPU architecture gives more fps than upgrading the GPU architecture imo. On the GPU side it's features is what needed upgrading.

 

[Loxus]

I have no idea. But I was a bit dismayed that Cerny didn't do a technical presentation for the Pro, like he did for the PS5.
Asides from a few theoretical throughput numbers, he didn't say anything about the hardware.

Yea, he didn't even talk about the Multi Frame Super Resolution (MFSR) implementation from the MLiD leak.

I would like to know if that is similar to Frame Generation.

 

[winjer]

Yea, he didn't even talk about the Multi Frame Super Resolution (MFSR) implementation from the MLiD leak.

That could be just a different way of saying temporal accumulation. Like all temporal upscalers use.

 

[rnlval]

RDNA5? Yeah no.

I don't think AMD will use Machine Learning anytime soon if ever.

They'll just keep betting on FSR and trying to win the low-mid range market from Nvidia.

AMD Fluid Motion Frames 2 Technical Preview Now Available

AMD Fluid Motion Frames, or AFMF1, is our cutting-edge frame generation technology designed to increase frame rates and gameplay smoothness. It is integrated right into AMD Software: Adrenalin Edition™ and is part of AMD HYPR-RX2, our one-click performance enhancing solution that delivers...

community.amd.com

AMD Fluid Motion Frames 2 has AI optimization

 

[Loxus]

That could be just a different way of saying temporal accumulation. Like all temporal upscalers use.

I see, I thought it was something like frame generation.

 

[AngelMuffin]

RDNA3/4/5, I still don't understand how the PS5 Pro is $700. Nearly everything is reused from the PS5 architecture besides the GPU features.
Is it because of AI, 2TB storage or wafer cost?

Because it’s a premium product for professionals.

 

[Chronos24]

What's really actually bothering me is this...did Cerny not look real in that video? It almost looked like CGI and on purpose. I could be crazy but seriously watch it again when the video shows him. Just didn't look natural. I thought the whole time they were doing that to show the tech behind the pro like "Look how real this looks" but I don't know. Look at his PS5 tech conference as opposed to the Pro video.

 

[rnlval]

Because the PS5 Pro is using an RDNA 3.5 GPU, but they added some features that will only exist in RDNA 4, like the ML hardware.

It's nothing new, AMD always done it like this:

Xbox 360 using an X1850, but with unified shaders from the Radeon HD 2000 that were released 6 months later.
PS4 using an HD 7970, but with Radeon 200 async shaders.
PS4 using an RX 470, but with the Rapid Packed Math of the Vega architecture.
PS5 with a mix of RDNA 1 with features from RDNA 2.

FYI, Xbox 360's Xenos SIMD+scalar architecture is different from Radeon HD 2000's VLIW5 architecture.

CPU and GPU "fusion" via pointer swap capability. Xbox 360 uses big-endian data format.

Each of GCN's ACE (async compute engine) units also 8 contexts in-flight. There are two ACE units for Radeon HD 78x0 and 79x0. There are eight ACE units for Radeon R9-285 Tonga, R9 290X Hawaii, and PS4 GPU.

X86 and GCN use little-endian data format.

 

[SmokedMeat]

At the end of the day Sony’s stuff will look a little sharper, as will the third party publishers Sony asks/pays to patch their games.
But not every developer is going to put the effort in. I remember that as a PS4 Pro owner.

 

[Loxus]

What's really actually bothering me is this...did Cerny not look real in that video? It almost looked like CGI and on purpose. I could be crazy but seriously watch it again when the video shows him. Just didn't look natural. I thought the whole time they were doing that to show the tech behind the pro like "Look how real this looks" but I don't know. Look at his PS5 tech conference as opposed to the Pro video.

They did almost the same thing for PS4 Pro, plus he 60. How do you think a 60 year old is supposed to look?

I wouldn't worry about anything, they'll give us more info leading up to release.

 

[DragonNCM]

I just want to k ow why they didn’t bump the cpu up?? Easily could have gotten a better cpu in there for this cost increase. Would have made this an instant classic machine

Game compatibility...that's why...

 

[SpokkX]

I just want to k ow why they didn’t bump the cpu up?? Easily could have gotten a better cpu in there for this cost increase. Would have made this an instant classic machine

This

This upgrade is almost worthless without a corresponding cpu upgrade. Even ps4 pro had a 33% frequency boost (which in itself was just a small boost) - ps5 pro has a measly 10% boost, it will barely be noticable

 

[shamoomoo]

They should have made that clear, maybe by giving it a name that reflects that.

What? Cerny made it clear the Pros aren't next Gen consoles just the "perfected" base model .

 

[M1chl]

On the not so bright sice, its still an AMD /jk, not really

 

[KeplerL2]

I have no idea. But I was a bit dismayed that Cerny didn't do a technical presentation for the Pro, like he did for the PS5.
Asides from a few theoretical throughput numbers, he didn't say anything about the hardware.

Because RDNA4 launches in ~4 months and AMD doesn't want their features spoiled.

 

[winjer]

Because RDNA4 launches in ~4 months and AMD doesn't want their features spoiled.

That is probably the reason. I hadn't considered that.

EDIT: I just remembered. The Road to PS5 was done in 18 Mar 2020.
But the RNDA2 by AMD presentation was done in 25 Oct 2020.

 

[RoboFu]

Yea, he didn't even talk about the Multi Frame Super Resolution (MFSR) implementation from the MLiD leak.

I would like to know if that is similar to Frame Generation.

sony planning to sell those 8 k TVs with the ps6 huh. lol id buy both.. i am part of the problem.

 

[Negotiator101]

This

This upgrade is almost worthless without a corresponding cpu upgrade. Even ps4 pro had a 33% frequency boost (which in itself was just a small boost) - ps5 pro has a measly 10% boost, it will barely be noticable

This is how the mid gen upgrade works, it's a decent upgrade but the price is too high unfortunately.

 

[KeplerL2]

That is probably the reason. I hadn't considered that.

EDIT: I just remembered. The Road to PS5 was done in 18 Mar 2020.
But the RNDA2 by AMD presentation was done in 25 Oct 2020.

AMD had already publicly talked about RDNA2 supporting DirectX 12 Ultimate features (RT/VRS/Mesh Shaders) at that point.

 

[Loxus]

AMD had already publicly talked about RDNA2 supporting DirectX 12 Ultimate features (RT/VRS/Mesh Shaders) at that point.

This means we'll get an official RDNA4 announcements and features before PS5 Pro releases and we don'thave to wait until next year?

 

[winjer]

AMD had already publicly talked about RDNA2 supporting DirectX 12 Ultimate features (RT/VRS/Mesh Shaders) at that point.

True. But they didn't say how it was going to be done.
Once MS chose nvidias solution for the DX12_2, we knew that AMD and Intel would have to follow through.

 

[Saberus]

I just want to k ow why they didn’t bump the cpu up?? Easily could have gotten a better cpu in there for this cost increase. Would have made this an instant classic machine

Comment ripped from the pages of the PS4 Pro... there are reason... this is not the PS6..

 

[notseqi]

What? Cerny made it clear the Pros aren't next Gen consoles just the "perfected" base model .

yeah, dont call it playstation 6 then

 

[ResilientBanana]

I just want to k ow why they didn’t bump the cpu up?? Easily could have gotten a better cpu in there for this cost increase. Would have made this an instant classic machine

Need to stay on the same architecture for CPU. All pro consoles have maintained the original CPU to some degree. This avoids fragmentation and ensures compatibility between models.

 

[SonGoku]

PS4 Pro GPU didn't include Vega's 64 ROPS 4MB L2 cache link.

Notice i did not claim PS4Pro was vega, just that it took a feature (RPM) from it

BVH8 with 2 triangles RT core is just two BVH4 with triangle RT core super glue.

Ampere RT core has BVH4 with 2 triangles.

So you speculate RDNA4 RT could be on par with Ampere?

Even so, the PS4 Pro had the CPU running at much higher frequency. Yes, PS5 Pro can technically run the CPU ever so slightly faster, with a very minor hit on GPU performance, but it's still basically the same which is disappointing. That, and the price of course.

Keep in mind Zen CPUs especially the older versions hit diminishing returns past certain threshold they dont gain much from frequency increase at the expense of much higher power consumption. They might not gain much from a substantial clock increase past the sweet spot

Did you notice that the 3700X can output +100 fps in most games. Even Baldurs Gate gets an average of 80 fps.
For 60 fps, the Zen 2 on the PS5 Pro is well enough. The only exception is with really badly optimized games.

To be fair 3700x has 4x the L3 cache (32mb vs 8mb) and faster clocks

They'll just keep betting on FSR and trying to win the low-mid range market from Nvidia.

Dont be so sure, AMD is set to merge compute and radeon graphics again with UDNA so it will make more sense in the future to leverage i robust machine learning hardware that would otherwise be a waste of die space for radeons graphics

We do know RDNA4 will have improved ML hardware (compared to RDNA3). PS5 Pro is very likely using the same thing.

The thing that has me scratching my head, is why Cerny called it custom machine learning hardware if its just using the same thing?
Or you mean they take AI instructions they need for image upscaling and ignore the rest?

That fanboy argues a lot about RDNA3. But PS5 Pro doesn't use RDNA3 at all. It uses RDNA3.5 + RT / ML from RDNA4. Viola should be a prototype of RDNA4 and should look nothing like RDNA3.

RDNA 3.5 + RT/ML from RDNA4 is a longer way of saying RDNA4, they are the same thing afaik RNDA3.5 implements all of RDNA4 benefits sans improved RT to save on die space. So if you add RT improvements to it, doesnt that just make it RDNA4 based or on par with RDNA4 if you want to get technical

This isnt aimed at you specifically, just find it funny distinction

Notice that they used the word custom and not bespoke.

Custom refers to products or services made based on predetermined options, while bespoke involves creating something entirely unique from scratch.

Custom as in modifying an existing products to meet their needs. 60 CUs with two Shader Engines are referred to as custom since no other AMD RDNA GPU is similar.

If its just using standard RDNA4 AI blocks why do you think he called the machine learning hardware "custom"? im interested in your take
Its one thing to call the GPU itself custom i get that but to refer to a specific hardware block as custom it means is not the same as the standard block seen on the architecture.

Taking into account what you said earlier, im speculating two possibilities
1. Sony wanted to make the AI blocks more robust/performant than what basic RDNA4 offers and asked AMD to increase the number, beef them up etc.
2. Could they repurpose machine learning hardware used on CDNA for the Pro GPU?

Because RDNA4 launches in ~4 months and AMD doesn't want their features spoiled.

Exactly my thoughts, I expect AMD to bring up PS5 Pro during their RDNA4 reveal

 

[Wolzard]

RDNA 3.5 with RT improvements IS RDNA4... The only difference between the two is RT which RDNA 3.5 opted out to safe on die space for laptop APUs
Also he didn't call the improved RT hardware "custom" which makes sense considering its part of RDNA4 which we now know they motivated AMD to develop

PS5 is RDNA2, theres no RDNA 1 or 1.5 . They just worked with AMD to pick and chose the features from it

Correct but with the important distinction that in all those examples they gave the latest arch + some forward features not the last gen arch + some next gen features.
And again im not surprised by this fact itself (I expected Pro to have at least one feature beyond RDNA4) what surprises me is that AMD is still not implementing machine learning hardware for image upscaling on their latest upcoming arch

RDNA 4 will be much more than that. There are few details, but it is something different from RDNA 3. We have some drivers already built into Linux and the GCC compiler, as a different architecture. For comparison purposes, Strix Point APUs with RDNA 3.5 use the same RDNA 3 drivers.

FYI, Xbox 360's Xenos SIMD+scalar architecture is different from Radeon HD 2000's VLIW5 architecture.

I didn't say it was the same architecture, but that they used the concept of unified shaders that only came on the Radeon HD 2000.

This is the biggest advantage of the Xbox 360 over the PS3. The PS3 uses Nvidia's 7000 series, which used fixed shaders, each shader was responsible for a task, which made the GPU idle at times, while the 360's could be completely used all the time.

 

[Loxus]

If its just using standard RDNA4 AI blocks why do you think he called the machine learning hardware "custom"? im interested in your take
Its one thing to call the GPU itself custom i get that but to refer to a specific hardware block as custom it means is not the same as the standard block seen on the architecture.

Taking into account what you said earlier, im speculating two possibilities
1. Sony wanted to make the AI blocks more robust/performant than what basic RDNA4 offers and asked AMD to increase the number, beef them up etc.
2. Could they repurpose machine learning hardware used on CDNA for the Pro GPU?

Could still be RDNA2 and in order for the AI Accelerators to work in RDNA2, they had to customize it. Which is where the word custom is referring to.


Which console do you think AMD is referring to here?
AMD AI Solutions
AMD RDNA
The AMD RDNA™ architecture features AI accelerators delivering incredible performance, efficiency, and features to gamers across desktops, laptops, gaming consoles, mobile devices, and the cloud.

 

[rnlval]

Notice i did not claim PS4Pro was vega, just that it took a feature (RPM) from it


So you speculate RDNA4 RT could be on par with Ampere?

There's not enough information on BVH transverse hardware.

Box and triangle test hardware doesn't show the whole solution.

 

[rnlval]

AMD had already publicly talked about RDNA2 supporting DirectX 12 Ultimate features (RT/VRS/Mesh Shaders) at that point.

AMD's RDNA2 presentation omitted the missing BVH transverse flags and early BVH culling hardware support until revealing RDNA2's missing hardware features during RDNA3's presentation.

RDNA 2 doesn't fully accelerate RT like NVIDIA's RT cores.

 

[rnlval]

Could still be RDNA2 and in order for the AI Accelerators to work in RDNA2, they had to customize it. Which is where the word custom is referring to.


Which console do you think AMD is referring to here?
AMD AI Solutions
AMD RDNA
The AMD RDNA™ architecture features AI accelerators delivering incredible performance, efficiency, and features to gamers across desktops, laptops, gaming consoles, mobile devices, and the cloud.

Click on the link under "The AMD RDNA™ architecture features AI accelerators delivering incredible performance, efficiency, and features to gamers across desktops, laptops, gaming consoles, mobile devices, and the cloud", it jumps to

https://www.amd.com/en/technologies/rdna.html

"AI Acceleration" is for RDNA 3.
It's dedicated AI units for RDNA 3.

----------------------------

Defining the Next Generation: An Xbox Series X|S Technology Glossary - Xbox Wire

[Editor’s Note: Updated on 10/21 at 11AM to ensure it is now reflective of the capabilities across both of our next-gen Xbox consoles following the unveil of Xbox Series S.] As we enter a new generation of console gaming with Xbox Series X and Xbox Series S, we’ve made a number of technology...

news.xbox.com

– Xbox Series X supports Machine Learning for games with DirectML, a component of DirectX. DirectML leverages unprecedented hardware performance in a console, benefiting from over 24 TFLOPS of 16-bit float performance and over 97 TOPS (trillion operations per second) of 4-bit integer performance on Xbox Series X.

Xbox Series X's RDNA 2-based GPU has INT4 ML support.

 

[Loxus]

Click on the link under "The AMD RDNA™ architecture features AI accelerators delivering incredible performance, efficiency, and features to gamers across desktops, laptops, gaming consoles, mobile devices, and the cloud", it jumps to

https://www.amd.com/en/technologies/rdna.html

"AI Acceleration" is for RDNA 3.
It's dedicated AI units for RDNA 3.

----------------------------

Defining the Next Generation: An Xbox Series X|S Technology Glossary - Xbox Wire

[Editor’s Note: Updated on 10/21 at 11AM to ensure it is now reflective of the capabilities across both of our next-gen Xbox consoles following the unveil of Xbox Series S.] As we enter a new generation of console gaming with Xbox Series X and Xbox Series S, we’ve made a number of technology...

news.xbox.com

– Xbox Series X supports Machine Learning for games with DirectML, a component of DirectX. DirectML leverages unprecedented hardware performance in a console, benefiting from over 24 TFLOPS of 16-bit float performance and over 97 TOPS (trillion operations per second) of 4-bit integer performance on Xbox Series X.

Xbox Series X's RDNA 2-based GPU has INT4 ML support.

It specifically says AI Accelerators, which Xbox Series X doesn't have and is comparable to Nvidia's Tensor Cores. What console do you know of that has AI Accelerators?

AMD plans to harness the power of AI to transform gaming with its next-gen GPUs
In a recent interview with the Japanese gaming website 4gamer, the AMD execs detailed some of what we can expect from RDNA 4. Naturally, front and center was confirmation that we’ll be seeing the second iteration of Team Red’s AI Accelerator cores (similar to Nvidia’s Tensor cores), which were first introduced in the current-gen RDNA 3 GPUs - such as the excellent Radeon RX 7900 XTX, currently the best AMD graphics card on the market.

Nvidia’s tech is still lightyears ahead of AMD when it comes to AI processes - just look at the RTX 4090 - but these second-gen AI cores should offer a serious step up.

 

[rnlval]

It specifically says AI Accelerators, which Xbox Series X doesn't have and is comparable to Nvidia's Tensor Cores. What console do you know of that has AI Accelerators?

AMD plans to harness the power of AI to transform gaming with its next-gen GPUs
In a recent interview with the Japanese gaming website 4gamer, the AMD execs detailed some of what we can expect from RDNA 4. Naturally, front and center was confirmation that we’ll be seeing the second iteration of Team Red’s AI Accelerator cores (similar to Nvidia’s Tensor cores), which were first introduced in the current-gen RDNA 3 GPUs - such as the excellent Radeon RX 7900 XTX, currently the best AMD graphics card on the market.

Nvidia’s tech is still lightyears ahead of AMD when it comes to AI processes - just look at the RTX 4090 - but these second-gen AI cores should offer a serious step up.

Notice my "----------------------------" line.

I'll bite. I'm game for AI technical debate.

AI processing usually involves a lesser datatype in a matrix with a 32-bit accumulated result.

ADA's Tensor has INT4, INT8, and FP8 matrix resolves into INT32/FP32 accumulated result. This is used for the weighted decision process a.k.a. the so-called ML. Vega RPM's FP16 doesn't accumulate into INT32/FP32 results. Xbox Series X's shader design has INT4 or INT8 with a 32-bit accumulate result feature on its shader units.

Separate AI units don't reduce general shader resources.

For RDNA 3's separate AI units or NPU, AMD has the raw AI hardware on separate units with weaker software middleware.