Devolution
Member
It means everything. It means they don't want prospects knowing the brutal reality that is military life for women. It's disgusting and frankly reflects more than a few problems at work here.
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Rape in the US military: America's dirty little secret
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It means everything. It means they don't want prospects knowing the brutal reality that is military life for women. It's disgusting and frankly reflects more than a few problems at work here.
From what I can tell, its changed a bit. They've made a big deal about how they've changed their approach and everything and have even begun designating help at the company and platoon level beyond the normal EO stuff.
I kinda drift between the infantry guys and the MI people. The crowds are different, yeah, but the importance of the issue is still weighed the same. People want to imply its hush hush when its not. There's open discussion on it each time I'm forced into a brief.
I felt the same way at first, but now... yeah, its best if the military handled most of its shit on its own.
iamshadowlark
Banned
It will piss people off because its bullshit, and has little factual bearing. Hell your not even allowed to have consensual sex when your down range, sometimes the opposite sex is not allowed to be in your room. The fact is the military is a haven for stress and pressure, and most people minds just break. Combine that with the fact that alot of people in the military are already unstable and you get sky high mental illness, rape and suicide rates.
Ah ok that's good to hear there are open discussions now.
I agree, the issue is far more complicated and it's a little lazy just blaming the offenders without making any investigation on what other factors are involved. But the individuals in question are all adults I presume and a good portion of which I read were middle aged individuals....
I know this is an old issue but look at Col. Russell Williams of the Canadian Army... the man is a serial rapist and commanded a Canadian Forces Base... I mean the man was fucked up and yet extremely well respect for the most part....
I can't imagine the military system could really account for the fucked up people that climb up into the ranks, it's just not enough to hold the military accountable for something that to me seems a little hard to control.
Maybe take measures to police & investigate every member in such large organization as any military.... have more regular psych evaluations....
I don't know if there really will ever be a viable solution to this outside of changing some malignant culture issue's of western societies through media & awareness programs targeting the younger generations.....
Devolution
Member
If anything you kind of proved my point. The atmosphere they're enforcing is a problem.
mclaren777
Member
Wow.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
....well then perhaps something is wrong that the public should know about
Seriously... you ask a guy to get shot at, mortared, spit on, sweat his ass off everyday then explicitly say he can't have sex on top of that?
Trouble.
But not send them to jail?
If the military tries so hard to prevent rape, why do women constantly report that their superiors don't want to hear about it and rarely do anything about it?
Keeping everything secret means there is no accountability. No accountability means no justice. We know from the Catholic Church abuse scandal that keeping things internal never results in justice for victims, and only protects rapists.
astroturfing
Member
200 random violent criminals. 100% men, 0% women. there's gotta be a fundamental biological difference. if it was say 75% to 25% i'd have doubts about what i'm saying but... nope. difference is too big.
also, our culture has been male dominated for how many millenia again..? it all stems from that, i believe. men are and have been fucked up for a looong time (think long before Homo Sapiens), and it's reflected in the culture. it's in our genes, we are hunters by nature, we want and crave excitement, often violent excitement... it WILL manifest in a modern culture, one way or another.
reason why the majority of men aren't very violent is because they have just enough restraint. but it's in them, the violent tendencies.
OK truthfully, i don't know... i might be completely wrong and men are wonderful loving creatures who don't like violence at all. but i don't see proof of that. women are much closer to that ideal, i think. (while not perfect of course lol).
It's not just "fucked up people" though. People who may have never thought they would do these sort of things, find themselves changed, find themselves in situations, and find themselves doing really fucked up things of all kinds.
It's going to take more than making people watch videos and take part in training briefings, which they wouldn't have if they thought there wasn't a problem. They need to reevaluate their entire philosophy on what makes a soldier. Just like they need to do with police to stem the tide of endemic violence and prejudicial profiling. They need to work on interpersonal relationships beyond squads, teams, and chains of command. They need to go beyond just creating battle-ready individuals able to execute orders no matter what. They'd have to straighten out the sex issues that are apparent even in civilian culture. But that would mean making the military more than just an enforcement arm of American foreign policy. Right now they'll just deter and enforce, even though enforce often means enforcing the code of silence and making it one woman's burden instead of an entire army's.
It's going to take more than making people watch videos and take part in training briefings, which they wouldn't have if they thought there wasn't a problem. They need to reevaluate their entire philosophy on what makes a soldier. Just like they need to do with police to stem the tide of endemic violence and prejudicial profiling. They need to work on interpersonal relationships beyond squads, teams, and chains of command. They need to go beyond just creating battle-ready individuals able to execute orders no matter what. They'd have to straighten out the sex issues that are apparent even in civilian culture. But that would mean making the military more than just an enforcement arm of American foreign policy. Right now they'll just deter and enforce, even though enforce often means enforcing the code of silence and making it one woman's burden instead of an entire army's.
There's a difference between military culture and the demands of the military.
Military culture is "lol, you sure you can carry that Sue?"
Demands of the military is "I'm sick and tired of this shit, I'm gonna _________"
Either I'm having the crazy deja vu, or someone tried this crazy fucker of a line on GAF already. Was it you?
Devolution
Member
But it sounds like both are in play. You have hypermasculinity + repressed sexuality via rules + extreme stress, timebomb waiting to happen.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
More then that I think the American concept of "military" needs vast scaling back. If the war in Iraq convinced me of one thing its that the concept of "big military" needs to end. Maintain a decent air-force, keep our Navy strong, cut back on the Army and in general seriously cut down to a defensive force.
I'm guessing this view is a relic from the past that hasn't been addressed yet. Because it's the military, not a damn catholic prep school.
iamshadowlark
Banned
They have too. Military members are subject to a different(read stricter) set of laws than civillians. We have less rights and it wouldn't be proper to try and mix that with the GP law system.
They do. They preach it your whole career.
Devolution said:
Military life for women is not brutal, you are talking out of your ass. Hell I work for a female General who commands more respect than half the men in the service. You are spouting sensationist bullshit. The military takes rape more serious than the civillian world does.
The US military is very Christian. They have many chapels and ministers and are known to push Christianity on solders hard.
You know it really doesn't help that woman are attracted to the supreme assholes. Obviously rape and murder are far worse than domestic abuse, but how many times do you hear of women who were victims run back to their abuser? Women want men with power and men want women... it's a problem with both genders.
Devolution
Member
They take it so seriously hence this article.
Uh, let's not do this thanks.
Who says they don't? Again, the issue is still bad. Really bad. But compared to how it used to be, its WAY fucking better. This shit isn't going to change overnight or in one series of senate hearings. There is a lot to it. But just because it is the military, it will never be anywhere close to how it is on the civilian side.
on some real shit, wtf like... wtf
The military is very Christian, at the same time pushing religion does not go down like it used to.
Maybe the problem is that neither take rape seriously enough.
astroturfing
Member
i agree with you
everyone else calling us crazy heh. and the female sex is actually the default sex in nature, we men only exist to help against parasites (sexual reproduction).no, but it makes it more LIKELY.
I swear I see this story pop up every few months for the past few years and it never matches what I see in the Army. I can only speak for the support units I've been in (Finance) but it seems damn near impossible for rape to be covered up or dismissed. Damn near half of my senior NCOs and officers are female and would never participate in a cover up, and we get those sexual awareness classes at least every 6 months with plenty of frank discussions. While deployed no one in my unit aren't allowed to go anywhere unaccompanied, especially females.
I can believe sexual harassment is widespread in the Army in the form of dirty jokes and lewd comments.. expect that females are among the dirtiest and perverted among us. We harass each other all day long, the sex doesn't matter. That is what bored people do. I've stated before in other threads that the Army is the most homoerotic place I've ever worked.
If this article came out half a dozen years ago I'd believe it, but not nowadays. The article is also a bit sneaky about the working, sure it is true that a female is more likely to be raped than killed by enemy fire. She is also probably more likely to die in an vehicle accident, it is all IEDs nowadays.
I can believe sexual harassment is widespread in the Army in the form of dirty jokes and lewd comments.. expect that females are among the dirtiest and perverted among us. We harass each other all day long, the sex doesn't matter. That is what bored people do. I've stated before in other threads that the Army is the most homoerotic place I've ever worked.
If this article came out half a dozen years ago I'd believe it, but not nowadays. The article is also a bit sneaky about the working, sure it is true that a female is more likely to be raped than killed by enemy fire. She is also probably more likely to die in an vehicle accident, it is all IEDs nowadays.
cooljeanius
Member
This is my Senator's pet issue she's currently focusing on pushing legislation about, and she doesn't even get a mention? Check out the Shaheen Amendment to the NDAA: http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdque...fZN0::|/home/LegislativeData.php?n=BSS;c=112|
The article is spouting a lot of a bullshit that is simply wrong.
"Rape is a universal problem it happens everywhere. But in other military systems it is regarded as a criminal offence, while in the US military, in many cases, it's considered simply a breach of good conduct"
That is either blatant ignorance, sensationalism, or just plain old bullshit.
Devolution
Member
Would you consider the experiences of the victims in the article bullshit though?
The rapes probably occur more in deployed infantry units, the grunts if you will. That's where they probably send all the recruits that were of questionable quality but accepted anyways because of shortages.
I think it has more to do with health and chain of command issues that come up. You can have sex with someone outside of your chain of command. Also, if you are getting shot at, mortared etc, you are deployed which means everyone needs to be available for duty. Pregnancies or VD outbreaks fuck things up. A lesson learned in Vietnam.
lol no this was not my experience in any unit I served with. Chaplains act more like counselors and every time I talked to one religion wasn't even brought up. Stop spreading bullshit.
Regulus Tera
Romanes Eunt Domus
It's not really a secret. More like the elephant in the room.
They weren't even allowed porno mags in some places overseas. I couldn't believe that stuff. Of course they still had it, but lots of COs considered it "contraband".
Anti-fraternization policies are understandable, but in the old days they had brothels, or trying to hook up with locals when on leave. But you just try that in Iraq or AfPak...
Anti-fraternization policies are understandable, but in the old days they had brothels, or trying to hook up with locals when on leave. But you just try that in Iraq or AfPak...
Yet military bases are still the best business for brothels all around the world.
Maybe not so much in the middle east though. Maybe that's why their eyes turn to female soldiers, the lack of available brothels.
iamshadowlark
Banned
Who said they don't go to jail? You ever heard of Fort Leavenworth? You don't ever want to go there.
The_Technomancer said:
You keep playing up this jive about the military luring in unsuspecting people and hiding shit like this when its the opposite of the truth.
Devolution said:
Yep this article represents the majority of the military and its message. Congratulations.
I think the premise is that these assaults are going unreported, or aren't being properly reported up the chain, or prosecuted. Of course sexual assault is illegal, but if it never makes it out of the barracks, the article is essentially correct. Someone gets cited for roughhousing, and a female soldier gets a case of PTSD and pariah status for her troubles.
It sounds as though the internalization of investigations and leaving them up to the discretion of commanders is a source of the problem:
There are too many stories of military rape for the Pentagon to ignore. "This is now a command priority," says a spokesman for the department of defence. "We clearly still have more work to do." But the sheer statistics beg the question: why is rape in the American military so common in the first place? "We looked at the systems for reporting rape within the military of Israel, Australia, Britain and some Scandinavian countries, and found that, unlike the US, other countries take a rape investigation outside the purview of the military," explains Greg Jacob, policy director at the Service Women's Action Network. "In Britain, for example, the investigation is handed over to the civilian police."
You're not doing a very good job of convincing me that that's the case.
toxicgonzo
Taxes?! Isn't this the line for Metallica?
This is one of many reasons I talked my ex-gf out of joining the marines.
Holy fuck. No, there are no females in infantry units. Most rapes occur within the womans chain of command. You have no clue.
No, I wouldn't. At the same time, saying something like its "a breach of good conduct" is entirely wrong. I've seen entire battalions torn down and put on the cover of the Army Times for rape and sexual harassment. But you won't see civilian articles on that. I've been a part of two tribunals, 1 during BCT and 1 during AIT. One regarding a racial issue involving an officer and the other involving allegations of sexual harassment - as I was still in initial entry, me being a part of that process even 5 years ago would've been unheard of.
I'm not saying the military is rape free. Far from it. But there have been massive improvements across the board, and they do still have a ways to go, and they need help too, but to say that the issue is neglected is simply wrong. Rape does happen, and just because its not reported on your local news, it doesn't mean that it isn't being dealt with, justice isn't being served, and help for all parties isn't provided. Some people are going to slip through the cracks, but those cracks are a lot smaller than they used to be.
Mortrialus
Banned
Have you heard of selection bias before? Stating that your experience and chaplain is indicative of ALL of the military is simply absurd. Stop spreading bullshit thinking.
I meant by men in the infantry, raping women in support, ya I worded that poorly. I could also be wrong about infantry raping US women, they probably just rape local women.
What don't they have real counselors for you to talk to who aren't Chaplains?
And I wouldn't doubt this, this is why I'm against having females in combat units. Not because of sexism or discrimination but because infantry units are like a giant high school or college frat fueled by alcohol and bored young males.
I wouldn't want my daughter or sister joining a party sorority in college either for the same reason. Which is something else I always wonder about in this same article that recirculates every few months. How does the likelihood of rape compare to a college dorm, because in my mind the two share the same problem; bored drunk young males. How does the percentage compare to the overall US population? I swear I remember a percentage saying that 1 in 6 females in the US will be raped or experience an attempted rape. So it the Army an especially rape-y place as this article suggests or is it an overall problem in the US?
No, again. Most rapes occur within the female soldiers chain of command. Usually by their NCO's or by those of same rank.
http://www.veteransforpeace.org/files/pdf/Sadler%20Military%20Environment.pdf
A pretty good overview.
College campuses have the same problem. Lots of rape, very little justice. Colleges try to hush the cases because it's bad PR for recruitment. Nobody wants to risk being known as the "rapist campus" so they do everything they can to discourage women from reporting cases to the police.
and of all the chaplains i've seen, none of have brought up religion. not one.
The issues pop up most in chain of command because of fear that it will effect careers and things of that sort.
edit: and there are a LOT of reasons why females aren't in combat units. reasons more severe than rape too
As steelrain said, no thats not even where most rapes occur...
The issues pop up most in chain of command because of fear that it will effect careers and things of that sort.
edit: and there are a LOT of reasons why females aren't in combat units. reasons more severe than rape too
iamshadowlark
Banned
I wouldn't say that at all. The US military is way to isolated for cases to just be handed over the civilian law system. You have to have specialized agencies that understand military life, which they do.
Yes they do. When you are on deployment, however, the chaplain fills that role if you are in a shitty little base somewhere.
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