Fernando Fernandez
Member
Dan Hodges is already saying Labour "moderates" are fuming (when is he or them, not?)
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UK General Election - 8th June 2017 |OT| - The Red Wedding
- Thread starter Jezbollah
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WhateverItTakes
Banned
Meh, to me the fact Labour have gotten this far is already a surprise. We might as well let Corbyn be Corbyn and see where that lands us. Which is completely at odds with my usual 'be safe to catch as many voters as you can so we can win' peddling.
Worse comes to worst if public opinion tanks after this one speech surely it means he'd be replaced after the loss?
Huw_Dawson
Member
It's not just the words in the speech that will matter for Corbyn, it's also his record, both in and out of parliament. And timing - blaming foreign policy in the middle of an election campaign just after a horrific bombing?
Nice to see the Tory's tank in the polls. I doubt May is sleeping too well at the moment.
Win-win(lose)?
Win-win(lose)?
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Theresa May is becoming bizarro Clinton at this rate - woman who got the job thanks to an invisible primary with no serious competition from party notables running a largely policy free campaign defending the status quo and focusing on perceived competence differences with the populist opponent, and then going to blow a large lead in the run-up to the election followed by a police/ intelligence issues causing a last moment oppo drop.
They're only fuming because the moderates have a "win at any cost" mindset. They think it'll lose votes and would prefer to lie to people, but it's hard to argue with this:
"Austerity has to stop at the A&E ward and at the police station door. We cannot be protected and cared for on the cheap. There will be more police on the streets under a Labour Government. And if the security services need more resources to keep track of those who wish to murder and maim, then they should get them."
Everybody that can rub two brain cells together already knows foreign interventions in some countries only lends to dubious causes. Even on the ukipper end of the spectrum, there are people who would rather see us not wasting our money on foreign misadventure.
Air Zombie Meat
Member
Will be depressing if people can't handle hearing an obvious truth.
Daffy Duck
Member
But it's OK for May to use this as a trigger for cracking down on the internet, using this very same event as a politcial motive, but Corbyn can't talk about it, because reasons.
Yeah this is pretty much where I'm at now.
If he falls on his face then he's only landing where we expected him to. If he can win while telling the unfiltered truth maybe we'll see some real change in this country.
I'll vote Labour, Lib Dems have been splitting the progressive vote for too long. A true progressive alliance would benefit everyone but that's never existed and clearly never will.
locke_21183
Neo Member
I think people are slightly misjudging how much this will put off the Daily Mail crowd. My uncle reads it every day (except Sundays, when he gets the Express...), usually votes UKIP, hates the EU, etc - and if you mention any form of intervention in another country, he'll start off on a "what happens overseas is none of our business, we shouldn't go interfering in other countries, that's what started all this terrorist nonsense!" type rant. He would never in a million years admit to agreeing with Corbyn, but on this I suspect he actually does. I think this message might appeal to some of the people that some are really expecting would hate it.
Dirtyshubb
Member
Seeing anti labour videos in the paid ad section on YouTube from the Lib Dems really made me dislike them.
Every progressive party need to focus solely on the Tories failures and not attack each other. It just comes across as self serving and totally against the progressive cause.
Huw_Dawson
Member
Oh, I'm not saying May should not be criticised. Let them fight!
Spuck-uk
Banned
And yet, he's 100% correct.
Also the Tory lead is down to 5% apparently http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-poll-yougov-latest-jeremy-corbyn-tory-points-slashed-theresa-may-party-surge-a7756421.html
Spuck-uk
Banned
The hardline right wing 'war on terror' clearly isn't working, and arguably has never worked.
There's nothing wrong in Corbyn's speech, he's correct, but I'd rather he waited until say Tuesday to give it. The media would have a weekend of how the bomber was radicalised (terror camps in Libya etc), and May hasn't got an effective response over her police cuts etc. I can't help but think tactically it would be better to let things stew for a couple of days while hitting May hard on police cuts and trying to get her police federation Q&A front and centre.
Daffy Duck
Member
That wasn't aimed at you, was aimed at the press/Tories.
Roberto Larcos
Member
This is my number one hate in politics.
I'm a Lib Dem, not a temporarily embarrassed Labour voter. I'm progressive, but I'm not going to an authoritarian party that supports hard Brexit. There are plenty Lib Dems that skew more blue than red, as 2015 showed.
All your narrative does is give off an absolutely disgusting stench of entitlement, and pushes me further and further away from voting Labour or Conservative.
As for why the Lib Dems focus on Labour voters, that's because a lot are disenfranchised with the party after Corbyn, after the Brexit vote, and many will actually otherwise switch to the Conservatives. Would you rather red votes turn yellow or blue, or are you saying there's no difference at all? Also, there are a lot of seats where the Lib Dems are still the best non-Conserative option, and that requires squeezing Labour voters. Sorry if you didn't want to hear that, but we'll tell those people our policies and try our best to get them on-side. We are also fighting Labour in a handful of seats and, weirdly, we want to win those seats rather than come second again.
Jezbollah
Member
Those IFS reports are quite juicy.
Analysis of the Conservative manifesto implies five more years of austerity, while Labour would push up tax rates to its highest level in peacetime history.
Wonder if May or Corbyn will reference this in their upcoming leaders questioning shows....
Analysis of the Conservative manifesto implies five more years of austerity, while Labour would push up tax rates to its highest level in peacetime history.
Wonder if May or Corbyn will reference this in their upcoming leaders questioning shows....
What would the effect of Corbyn winning be on the value of the pound? Surely it would sink? Or not? A government change in the midst of Brexit won't be the 'strong and stable' outcome markets would probably like to see. But on the other hand, they may think Corbyn will be a little softer with the EU - perhaps both a good and bad thing depending which way you look at it. I'm not sure nationalisation is ever seen as a good thing for the economy either by the markets.
I only ask for opinion because the pound has already taken another tumble this week and I'm off on a road trip to Switzerland and Italy in July! So rather than worrying about the future of our beloved country, I just care about what exchange rate I'm going to get on my holidays.
I only ask for opinion because the pound has already taken another tumble this week and I'm off on a road trip to Switzerland and Italy in July! So rather than worrying about the future of our beloved country, I just care about what exchange rate I'm going to get on my holidays.
My position entirely right now. Somehow the polls have come closer in the last few weeks, but still probably not enough to stop a Tory majority. If people respond well to him in the next 7 days it could prevent a majority. If it goes the other way he could be gone and we can hope that 5 years is enough for Labour to sort their shit out.
Interestingly I suspect a hung parliament would simply lead to another election, I cannot see how any coalition involving the Tories could work this time.
Had the misfortune of having Radio Scotlands call in program on there (which is normally like most political call in programs a cesspool), the subject was on the causes of terror and radicalisation, but it was very interesting that pretty much every caller big on foreign policy,critical of Tories and Mays reduction of police and emergency services.
If the good Labour surrogates (i.e not Thornberry or Abbott) can get motivated and behind Corbyn on this, it might have a bit of traction.
If the good Labour surrogates (i.e not Thornberry or Abbott) can get motivated and behind Corbyn on this, it might have a bit of traction.
Fernando Fernandez
Member
This was only from last September
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...leading-to-collapse-and-rise-of-a7251331.html
The bloody collapse of Libya which triggered a refugee crisis and aided the rise of Isis is blamed today on David Camerons blunders when he intervened to overthrow Colonel Gaddafi.
A damning report by MPs condemns the 2011 military campaign for lacking both accurate intelligence and a coherent strategy for the aftermath of removing the dictator.
The disastrous results were political and economic collapse, tribal warfare, the refugee crisis, widespread human rights abuses and the rise of Islamic State (IS) in North Africa, fuelled by weapons abandoned by the Gaddafi regime.
The Foreign Affairs Select Committee concludes: Through his decision-making in the National Security Council, former prime minister David Cameron was ultimately responsible for the failure to develop a coherent Libya strategy.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...leading-to-collapse-and-rise-of-a7251331.html
The bloody collapse of Libya which triggered a refugee crisis and aided the rise of Isis is blamed today on David Camerons blunders when he intervened to overthrow Colonel Gaddafi.
A damning report by MPs condemns the 2011 military campaign for lacking both accurate intelligence and a coherent strategy for the aftermath of removing the dictator.
The disastrous results were political and economic collapse, tribal warfare, the refugee crisis, widespread human rights abuses and the rise of Islamic State (IS) in North Africa, fuelled by weapons abandoned by the Gaddafi regime.
The Foreign Affairs Select Committee concludes: Through his decision-making in the National Security Council, former prime minister David Cameron was ultimately responsible for the failure to develop a coherent Libya strategy.
Roberto Larcos
Member
If he commits to remaining in the single market, that might help the maths.
Spuck-uk
Banned
In 1974 the top tax rate was 83% so not sure where your numbers are from..
Spuck-uk
Banned
There's certainly no chance of a Labour/Conservative alliance, and the Lib Dems have SAID they won't go into a coalition, buuuuut.
OrangeGrayBlue
Member
So do we think Corbyn actually has a chance or are we just curious to see how close he can make it?
Just how close he makes it. If the Tories win with the same majority or just a little more, it will break their narrative of having a large mandate and also might stir some internal conflict.
Honestly? I think it's not doable but it's much closer than it was a few weeks ago, so I just like to entertain the possibility of Labour stopping a Tory majority. Which would at the very least be a massive blow to May.
Edit: And as Chinner said, even preventing the Tory majority from growing would be a blow to her. She would've essentially wasted a shit load of money and failed to get the mandate she herself said she wanted out of this election.
I don't mean to imply the Lib Dems should support Labour, just that there's no other situation that I personally would vote for them.
The way I see it Lib Dems have two options: be the party of the centre or form a progressive alliance to bolster the left.
Clearly they chose the former, and I don't begrudge them or anyone who feels best represented by that position. But from there the only way for them to become one of the major parties is if Labour (or, less likely, the Tories) dies. The end of Labour would be a de facto shift to the right for the country as a whole, so it's something I can't support.
JonathanEx
Member
Andrew Neil Interviews on BBC1
Tonight: 26 May 7pm, Jeremy Corbyn
Sunday: 28 May 6pm, Nicola Sturgeon
Monday: 29 May 7:30pm, Paul Nuttall
Thursday: 1 June 7pm, Tim Farron
Tonight: 26 May 7pm, Jeremy Corbyn
Sunday: 28 May 6pm, Nicola Sturgeon
Monday: 29 May 7:30pm, Paul Nuttall
Thursday: 1 June 7pm, Tim Farron
Dirtyshubb
Member
Don't get me wrong, I totally understand your position and agree with it in principle. I typically value the Lib Dems and especially the green party positions more than Labour but due to our voting systems its always better to vote Labour as they are the only party close to fighting the Tories.
The issue with this election is that we are at a crucial point, the general population is both fed up with the status quo but also full on Britain first mode and how this plays out could have huge benefits or negative consequences depending on who wins.
If Labour win we have a genuinely progressive platform to work from, but if the Tories win we will get worse public services, less social care, worse economy and a general push towards the right.
I understand where you are coming from but I just want everyone to focus on how horrible the Tories are so we can try to shift public perception away from the myth they are good. That will have the best chance of changing things for everyone right now.
I think we're being kind to May by setting an incredibly low bar here. If she gets a majority of 50 or less then this election was a disaster - she was looking at 140 a few weeks ago. Obviously a wind a win, and increasing the majority is good for them, but it's not the landslide she should have won based on polling numbers etc.
I don't think disaster is the right word to be honest. A disaster would be losing seats. A 50 seat majority and a 100 seat majority are pretty similar in that they are both comfortable.
She will certainly feels she has the mandate to enact her manifesto if she has a majority of that size.
JonathanEx
Member
LBC and Hopkins parting ways, presumably after her 'final solution' tweet.
They've "agreed that Katie will leave LBC effective immediately", which is an interesting way of saying fired
https://twitter.com/LBC/status/868028943659524096
They've "agreed that Katie will leave LBC effective immediately", which is an interesting way of saying fired
https://twitter.com/LBC/status/868028943659524096
Fernando Fernandez
Member
Commenting on Jeremy Corbyn's forthcoming speech on British foreign policy, Liberal Democrat leader Tim Farron said: "A few days ago, a young man built a bomb, walked into a pop concert and deliberately slaughtered children. Our children. Families are grieving. A community is in shock.
Jeremy Corbyn has chosen to use that grotesque act to make a political point. I don't agree with what he says, but I disagree even more that now is the time to say it. That's not leadership, it's putting politics before people at a time of tragedy."
Jeremy Corbyn has chosen to use that grotesque act to make a political point. I don't agree with what he says, but I disagree even more that now is the time to say it. That's not leadership, it's putting politics before people at a time of tragedy."
And money trees.
WhateverItTakes
Banned
As long as you package it nicely- "Why spend x overseas when we can spend x on your safety" it could be very effective. But they're gonna have to soothe people's worries that higher taxes aren't gonna mean they've gotta resort to Lidl.
No disrespect to Lidl, wish I had one near me
Already playing that angle eh?
I agree with the earlier poster, it's unhelpful when the two 'progressive' parties go after eachother.
Small edit
That's a cheap, dumb line considering how much of the other manifestos from other parties is unfunded. There's nothing actually that outrageous about those commitments in finance terms either. 10000 more police is still only half the reduction over the last 5 years reversed.
No disrespect at all, even Fortnum & Mason is a little too chavvy for me.
Really now? You're forgetting that this isn't the only policy, these aren't the only financial commitments. They're going to somehow be able to afford this whilst ALSO funding everything else they've pledged, including the re-nationalisation of every service under the sun, and additional funds for NHS, tuition fees etc. I have no doubt that Corbyn will actually follow through with these policies, I don't doubt his integrity, but I do know that we'll then eventually end up like Greece but without the EU to bail us out.
Air Zombie Meat
Member
Yeeah libdems have lost my vote. Criticise the timing but Corbyn isn't wrong.
WhateverItTakes
Banned
Huw_Dawson
Member
That's unfair - Farron is responding to what Corbyn's doing, he's not trying to set the headlines. Corbyn is trying to connect the dots between the Manchester bombing and foreign policy. What do you propose he do - stay quiet about something he thinks is wrong?
PJV3
Member
That's how I view Farron on this as well, Corbyn isn't going to get cheap political victories out of his position, he isn't waving the flag.
I think the media and the right-wing of Labour will try to make sure it goes badly for Corbyn, as they have everything else, but whether it does or not I suppose we will find out in a few days with whatever new poll comes out.
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