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[GSG Flash]

Yes, everyone who disagrees with you, especially if it is not even about these racing games, is a forza boogie man. It's ok friend, just put this nice white jacket on. The walls are padded, you'll be just fine here.

What the hell are you even babbling on about? Someone here definitely needs to be admitted into a mental asylum and it's not me.

I have no problems with people who disagree with me, Forza has a lot of fans for a reason, what I do, however, have a problem with is iknos and kharvey for claiming to be neutral, objective and clear of all biasness when they're not. I also have a problem with Dan Greenawalt and their producer who trolled the GT5 thread, they're supposed to be professionals yet they act like you.

I don't have a problem with you or even that guy who said GT5 will be a sidegrade to Forza3(even though I doubt he even has a PS3), however you are pretty annoying since you seem to be arguing just for the sake of arguing.

For the record, I have not trolled Forza even once in this thread.

Hello and welcome to the internet hate machine. We have punch and pie.

So...after playing the FM3 demo for a bit and pulling out Prologue for another go round, I'm of the same opinion that I had with FM2...Forza's racing experience is just more appealing to me. I've always found Prologue to be somewhat more sedate in terms of feedback, despite the higher level of polish. Lack of damage is partially to blame, and I'm looking forward to seeing how that changes come March. Right now, however, hopping into the Audi R8 and whipping around Montserrat is more engaging. That's with the joypad alone, I can only imagine what it'd be like to play this with the racing wheel.

The racer AI is much more dynamic here. The AI suffers from the occasional bout of understeer just like the folks I race online. It holds the line aggressively, spins out and generally pushes me in a similar manner to a human player. Despite my disdain for wishy-washy terms, it generally does feel more "alive". Take that for what you will. Environments are great, but honestly I only pay attention to that aspect during replays. The cars themselves are quite nice, in-game, UI, photomode and replay - but no question, they suffer in comparison to Prologue.

In a perfect world, I'd combine FM3's driving model and opponent AI with Prologue's graphic sheen and overall polish for the racer of my dreams. Until then, I'll just enjoy FM3 now and see what GT5 brings next spring. The bar for console sim racing has been pushed even further.

Which when you think about it, really isn't a bad situation to be in at all.

there's yer red meat, now git git git

I really hope Polyphony takes notice of Forza's AI. As much as I like the GT series, there are 3 things that have annoyed me about GT to no end: the linear and predictable AI driving along a set line, the tire squealing noise and the bumper cars collision. It's awesome how the AI in Forza is prone to errors and are not just a bunch of mindless robots driving perfectly. Hopefully PD uses these 6 months wisely.

 

[Dina]

Livery editor? :lol :lol

You can laught this up all you want, but the livery editor is fucking huge.

 

[Doc Evils]

What the hell are you even babbling on about? Someone here definitely needs to be admitted into a mental asylum and it's not me.

I have no problems with people who disagree with me, Forza has a lot of fans for a reason, what I do, however, have a problem with is iknos and kharvey for claiming to be neutral, objective and clear of all biasness when they're not. I also have a problem with Dan Greenawalt and their producer who trolled the GT5 thread, they're supposed to be professionals yet they act like you.

I don't have a problem with you or even that guy who said GT5 will be a sidegrade to Forza3(even though I doubt he even has a PS3), however you are pretty annoying since you seem to be arguing just for the sake of arguing.

For the record, I have not trolled Forza even once in this thread.



I really hope Polyphony takes notice of Forza's AI. As much as I like the GT series, there are 3 things that have annoyed me about GT to no end: the linear and predictable AI driving along a set line, the tire squealing noise and the bumper cars collision. It's awesome how the AI in Forza is prone to errors and are not just a bunch of mindless robots driving perfectly. Hopefully PD uses these 6 months wisely.

If PD responded to the damage complaint, I'm hoping they take the AI crit serious too.

 

[Chrange]

I prefer GT5 as well. I never did slander FM3, I never went into the official FM3 thread to troll or some shit, I simply had no interest in the game.

I'm only in here because Forza fans started to take potshots at GT features and its physics engine, calling it thrash and so forth.

So bro, know what your saying before you spit stuff out.

Edit: I'm off to to play some Uncharted! Woot and some FM3/Shift! Later.

Well you do keep saying the physics are laughable and that you can't understand how anyone likes Forza more, though you refuse - even after being asked - to supply any reasons why. Or even why you think GT's physics are good, for that matter. You're not so much for GT as you are against Forza - you shout down any praise, but offer no reasons why.

 

[Recoil]

Listen, I made valid points against Iknos, if I was trolling, I guess he was too.

Trolling isn't about the valid points you make, it's about the invalid ones.


And statements like:

Besting Forza 3 will be very hard? How so? Explain please. Physics? Collisions? Online? Livery lol :lol), buying parts?

Do you even fucking know what a spoiler does when you add/buy it for your car? You probably don't.

Wtf? How so? All the pros you listed in your impressions, GT5 will have em' surpass em' or equal them if anything.

It's not something that "OMFG, it's so hard, PD can't do it"

Unless, you plan on pointing out how besting Forza 3 will be very very difficult, I suggest, you don't just come in here and say things like that.

My god, :lol :lol :lol You actually called FM3 a REALISTIC sim. Holy shit! :lol :lol

?

Come on, man. Trolling.

Say it with me now: Trolling


Here's a good question for yourself: You think you're keeping yourself objective and level-headed in this thread then, right?

Ikonos has constantly been saying positive things about both GT5 and Forza. Negative things too for each, but positive for each as well.

Have you even said a single truly positive thing about Forza in this thread yet? Because I looked a few pages back, and I couldn't find any.

So try it with me now. This is what Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson couldn't do when they brought Jon Stewart on Crossfire, and got exposed for shills. Remember that?

What do you like about Forza, Fortunate?

Let's start with one. Just one good thing. One thing you think Forza actually does better than GT5, that makes a difference in your opinion of the games. One thing you like about Forza.

Can you do that?

 

[[Nintex]]

I was thinking... to me this Gran Turismo vs. Forza thing is like Sonic vs. Mario. So now I'm wondering if in 10 years from now we'll see Gran Turismo & Forza: At the Olympic Motorsports.

 

[Interfectum]

Can we get back to comparing the games instead of discussing who is or who isn't a troll?

 

[Jander]

I was thinking... to me this Gran Turismo vs. Forza thing is like Sonic vs. Mario. So now I'm wondering if in 10 years from now we'll see Gran Turismo & Forza: At the Olympic Motorsports.

Wait, which one's Mario and which one's Sonic? This is very important.

 

[Recoil]

I'm only in here because Forza fans started to take potshots at GT features and its physics engine, calling it thrash and so forth.

Wait, so your response is to take potshots at Forza's features and physics, and call them trash and so forth?

You honestly don't see the problem here?

 

[[Nintex]]

Wait, which one's Mario and which one's Sonic? This is very important.

Mario started it all so Mario is Gran Turismo obviously.
Forza is the challenger so Forza is Sonic I'd say, here's a toast to Forza not ending up like Sonic after going 4D. At the same time I don't want Gran Turismo Party or Gran Turismo RPG. On a second thought, Gran Turismo Kart would be an awesome mindfuck.

 

[gkryhewy]

Can we get back to comparing the games instead of discussing who is or who isn't a troll?

Yeah, let's totally get back to you calling everyone who disagrees with you a "fanatic," and Turn10 war criminals :lol

 

[enzo_gt]

You can laught this up all you want, but the livery editor is fucking huge.

Always has been, always will be. Seriously there are people who don't care for the livery editor? Just on a technical levels its impressive, especially with the polys they are pushing on 360.

 

[LordPhoque]

Yeah, let's totally get back to you calling everyone who disagrees with you a "fanatic," and Turn10 war criminals :lol

:lol

 

[Arnie]

Yeah, let's totally get back to you calling everyone who disagrees with you a "fanatic," and Turn10 war criminals :lol

:lol So true.

 

[XiaNaphryz]

On a second thought, Gran Turismo Kart would be an awesome mindfuck.

Drivers inside cars that drive karts. Brilliant!

 

[elrechazado]

words.

I'm not arguing with you. I'm telling you why you're wrong. Usually people pay me for the privilege, but I like your moxie, I'm doing this one for free, just this once.

 

[mujun]

Just tried the Forza 3 demo on a friend's 360 - it plays very arcadey

Really?

I can hardly get around the track with all the assists off let alone win a race. Unlike Dirt 2 where I have won 95% of the races on the medium (or one up from medium) difficulty level on the first try.

Dirt 2 is what I consider to be "arcadey" when it comes to the driving.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

Isn't FortunateSon the same guy who had that, well, unfortunate fallout with the Bioshock official thread back in 2007?

 

[FortunateSon]

Trolling isn't about the valid points you make, it's about the invalid ones.

Alright, I made some invalid points and retarded statements but so did Iknos. He isn't perfect either.

By the way, I said and I quote "FM3 is not a realistic sim", because Jakovich or however you spell his name (sorry) called out GT on it's shitty physics among other gameplay issues when clearly FM3 is also not a reaslistic sim as it doesn't have realistic feedback/physics/gameplay and has it's own issues as well. Don't call GT out if you can't back it up. It's simply back and forth now. If someone thrashes GT, I'll be here as Iknos does when someone even drops a tear drop on FM.

Have you even said a single truly positive thing about Forza in this thread yet? Because I looked a few pages back, and I couldn't find any.

Nope. But I can.

What do you like about Forza, Fortunate?

Let's start with one. Just one good thing. One thing you think Forza actually does better than GT5, that makes a difference in your opinion of the games. One thing you like about Forza.

Can you do that?

The menu is great, layout is nice. Graphics are great when it comes to the environements. Dynamic ai, great ai. I always get caught off-guard. They don't just all drive in a one line segment. They are forceful, agressive (sp?) etc... Livery Editor, I don't find it important at all, it's a joke feature but I will admit, it's fun since I love Adobe Photoshop and I have fun making designs. I also like buying aftermarket parts and customizing my car, fun stuff. Skirts, spoilers, vinyls, rims etc...

The sound of the engines though of the different cars, (before/after engine swap, which is pretty awesome), :lol :lol is a joke, I could go into detail with this one, but I'm tired.

Happy now. I'm not saying for the sake of saying it, it's true.

Wait, so your response is to take potshots at Forza's features and physics, and call them trash and so forth?

No. No. People thrash on GT physics and features just because they can and claim FM3 has better features and physics. So obviously I'm going to question them about FM3 physics and features that are so awesome that it puts FM3 way ahead of the game and set the bar. Get where I'm going with this?

You honestly don't see the problem here?

You don't seem to have a problem with Iknos posts.

Isn't FortunateSon the same guy who had that, well, unfortunate fallout with the Bioshock official thread back in 2007?

Yes and I got banned, got some good few weeks vacations and learned my lesson, if I think a game is bad, I better make sure to state facts about why the game is bad, not just some bs.

Always has been, always will be.

Not a fact.

 

[elrechazado]

.

You remind me of when my four year old daughter writes on the wall and gets in trouble, and her only response is "but (her little brother) did it too!!! WAAAAAAAAAA"

Your entire defense seems to be "yeah i'm a fucking troll, but so is iknos!"

:lol :lol :lol

 

[nib95]

on-guard-rails :lol

You DO realise you can do that in F3 as well....right?

 

[Dra-Q]

You DO realise you can do that in F3 as well....right?

Well, you can even do this in real-life.

 

[LordPhoque]

You DO realise you can do that in F3 as well....right?

You couldn't in FM2. I'm too lazy to check this in the FM3 demo though.

 

[Epic Tier 3 Engineer]

Well, you can even do this in real-life.

:lol

Funny thing is, both games look great when you race in the 1st person view. Anything else is just for shits and giggles anyway. You don't notice stuff like magic carpet rides or grinding, heh.

 

[Cheeto]

You DO realise you can do that in F3 as well....right?

No you can't

 

[Chrange]

You DO realise you can do that in F3 as well....right?

No you can't. Haven't played a Forza game, huh?

 

[Dra-Q]

No you can't. Haven't played a Forza game, huh?

Yes we can.

 

[Chrange]

No, you can't drive around a corner grinding the rail at 150 mph - much less speeding up while grinding. Try it. :lol

 

[cakefoo]

Quick bio: I dabbled in GT1 and GT2 in the Playstation days, but they were too hard to grasp, me being only 12-ish at the time. I later played MSR on Dreamcast and then PGR 1 and 2 quite a lot, and then bought a 360 because of this video (which turned out to be incredibly misleading). I then played Forza 2 furiously the month it released, and when I put PGR3 back in, I honestly thought something might have been wrong with my 360 because of how funky the physics felt in comparison. Shortly after, I sold my 360 and bought a PS3, where I downloaded the GT:HD demo and took to it like a fish to water, and I raced the crap out of that single time trial for days and days. Eventually GT5 came out and I rented it and borrowed a G25, and wow, I drove so much better. It was really surprising because I was expecting it to be like my other experience with a wheel and PGR- extremely borked. Instead, it greatly improved my driving. I tried out Live for Speed and RFactor while I still had the G25, to see what all the fuss was about, and I would just say that the cars had more of a weighty boat-like sway to them and more oversteer compared to GT5P had, but GT5P isn't too shabby, to be honest.

Tonight I played the demo for FM3 for the first time. I drove the Mitsubishi EVO, and considering I just the other day won a GT5P race on Eiger Nordwand using an F430 with no assists, Pro, and AI hovering around 90 difficulty, I thought I'd cut to the chase and play the FM3 demo on the highest difficulty profile. My first lap felt pretty half-assed, so I restarted. For my second attempt, I went all the way to the finish. I had trouble braking too long and exiting turns too slowly. However, I still wound up getting 3rd or 4th place.

I then booted up GT5P, bought and drove what I assume is the closet equivalent car to the FM3 demo's Evo X GSR '08, the Evo X GSR '07, set the difficulty to 90, no assists, pro physics, and loaded the Suzuka Circuit. Surprisingly, I dropped to 16th place in less than 2 laps! And I was noticing that the visual and audible feedback I was getting as the other cars were zipping by me was so immersive it felt like I was really there. I also gained a much greater appreciation for GT5P's visual representation of g-forces, which I previously took for granted: the car dips when I brake and tips back up when I accelerate, and leans when I'm turning, as I think a real car would. What do I know, though? I also decided rather quickly that I prefer the sound and of course the graphics in GT5P over Forza 3. Despite the environments looking slightly better in FM3, it should mostly be about the cars and road you're staring at, not admiring the 3D branches on some tree.

I can see how Forza deserves credit for having AI opponents who aggressively defend their position and having performance repercussions for barreling into someone's rear end like a maniac; but I only had to ever do that once in GT5P (Daytona Gold trophy for F430); I don't normally barrel into anyone like Destruction Derby because that doesn't make me a better, more experienced driver. Besides, with GT5P's AI difficulty anywhere above 80, the challenge isn't about trying to outsmart the AI- it's about driving consistently well the entire race, shaving fractions of seconds off your time behind the lead car. GT5P's pponents don't hog your line to keep you from passing, but they do a fine job denying you the right to pass them by simply creating distance ahead of you if you fail to drive your best. Forza's opponents are more aggressive when it comes to that brief overtake moment, but I was underwhelmed that I could drive as sloppily as I did in the FM3 demo and still catch and overtake all but a few AI, all while on the highest difficulty. If I set GT5's AI to its highest difficulty I get murdered. :lol The heart of the experience for me is more about knowing the course, feeling connected to the car by observing the g-force feedback, pushing my car to its limits, and respecting everyone else's space and just being concerned with how my own individual performance stacks up in the long run with the AI racers.

Damn, I just wanted to share my experience having finally played both. Sorry for the wall-o-text!

 

[AMUSIX]

Besides, with GT5P's AI difficulty anywhere above 80, the challenge isn't about trying to outsmart the AI- it's about driving consistently well the entire race, shaving fractions of seconds off your time behind the lead car. GT5P's pponents don't hog your line to keep you from passing, but they do a fine job denying you the right to pass them by simply creating distance ahead of you if you fail to drive your best. Forza's opponents are more aggressive when it comes to that brief overtake moment, but I was underwhelmed that I could drive as sloppily as I did in the FM3 demo and still catch and overtake all but a few AI, all while on the highest difficulty. If I set GT5's AI to its highest difficulty I get murdered.

I think this is a very good assessment of the differences between Forza and GT AI. Forza's goal seems to be trying to create a racer behind the wheel of a car, while GT's seems to be trying to create the perfect driver. I think that's why people come away feeling that GT AI is non-existant or sterile, simply because there's only one perfect way to push a car around a track, and the higher GT's difficulty is set, the closer the cars get to matching that perfection.
Forza's driver AI is flawed, absolutely. Pit a Forza AI up against a GT AI, and the GT will most likely win. Forza makes mistakes, it'll enter a turn too fast, or allow itself to be bullied, it'll succumb to pressure or attempt to apply pressure on other drivers...all those things that will detract from a lap time. But it'll give up the WR time just for a shot at securing a win...like giving up the best line just so it can block an opponent. Flawed driving, no doubt, the type of stuff professional drivers get yelled at by their superiors for doing.

Personally, I find Forza's approach to be more entertaining, and delivers a more satisfying win. GT's perfection is boring...not a lot of difference between racing a GT field and racing the clock.

 

[Mohonky]

If PD responded to the damage complaint, I'm hoping they take the AI crit serious too.

It's true, I'm sure a small portion of the cars in GT5 will be given AI.

 

[Son of Godzilla]

Wait, some douchebag is hating on the livery editor? :lol God some of you are in your own little world.

 

[TofuEater]

If I set GT5's AI to its highest difficulty I get murdered. :lol The heart of the experience for me is more about knowing the course, feeling connected to the car by observing the g-force feedback, pushing my car to its limits, and respecting everyone else's space and just being concerned with how my own individual performance stacks up in the long run with the AI racers.

To my experience in GT5P ramping up AI difficulty just gives them a faster car. Like your example using a F430, difficulty at 90, half of will drive the Tuned by GT cars. Not exactly the fairest race.

Changing the difficulty in Forza 3, they still drive the same car. If you drove the Audi r8 v10, the ai does not take the Porsche RSR.

 

[Duelist]

Wait, some douchebag is hating on the livery editor? :lol God some of you are in your own little world.

They gotta get whatever ammo they can get. THIS IS WAR!

Spoiler

It's pretty dumb.

 

[painful fart]

I also gained a much greater appreciation for GT5P's visual representation of g-forces, which I previously took for granted: the car dips when I brake and tips back up when I accelerate, and leans when I'm turning,

Wait, wait, wait....

Forza doesn´t do this? (serious question)

 

[XiaNaphryz]

Wait, wait, wait....

Forza doesn´t do this? (serious question)

Well it's definitely noticeable in cockpit view, where for example your view will get moved forward if you brake hard. So it should be noticeable in any third-person view as well. I don't see why they'd go through all the trouble in animating tire flex if the rest of the car doesn't move properly to begin with.

 

[m0dus]

Wait, wait, wait....

Forza doesn´t do this? (serious question)

They've been tracking and modelling G-forces since the 1st game, I believe. In 2 and 3, you have a specific telemetry screen for g-forces, as well as independent suspension monitoring, and in 3, tire flex (which is partially influenced by body roll.)

 

[Brashnir]

Wait, wait, wait....

Forza doesn´t do this? (serious question)

It does.

In hood cam, however, while the car rolls, the view does not seem to.

 

[Ploid 3.0]

Mario started it all so Mario is Gran Turismo obviously.
Forza is the challenger so Forza is Sonic I'd say, here's a toast to Forza not ending up like Sonic after going 4D. At the same time I don't want Gran Turismo Party or Gran Turismo RPG. On a second thought, Gran Turismo Kart would be an awesome mindfuck.

Well PD did make this. Living cars.

 

[duk]

mario kart > gt5/fm3

 

[FunnyBunny]

Personally, I find Forza's approach to be more entertaining, and delivers a more satisfying win. GT's perfection is boring...not a lot of difference between racing a GT field and racing the clock.

I think this entire post sums up - perfectly - how I feel about the two franchises. Personally, I want the exciting racing experience, which puts me on the Forza side of the aisle.

 

[jet1911]

Wait, wait, wait....

Forza doesn´t do this? (serious question)

 

[eso76]

Wait, wait, wait....

Forza doesn´t do this? (serious question)

of course it does, but to be honest visual representation of body roll while turning should be more apparent; cars don't lean as much as you'd expect when turning.
GT does it better especially when it comes to small production cars, which still seem to have too stiff suspensions in forza.
But of course Forza simulates this, it's even possible to roll a car by simply taking a sharp turn while driving fast.



Btw, what's up with people saying forza physics are not all that and then claiming it's possible to race on guard rails like in that gif ?
So, why are some of you guys, who really NEVER played a forza game, in this thread ?

 

[cakefoo]

Wait, wait, wait....

Forza doesn´t do this? (serious question)

It does, I didn't say it doesn't, I just said that I like how it behaves in GT5, which in my opinion better conveys what a car is going through. You can see in the 60fps clips how as you turn in GT5 the car tilts to the outside, and in Forza 3 it's harder to see it.

http://www.gamersyde.com/stream_forza_motorsport_3_audi_r8_hood_view_60_fps-13046_en.html

http://www.gamersyde.com/stream_gran_turismo_5_gamescom_hood_view_60_fps-12581_en.html

 

[ResidentDante]

Btw, what's up with people saying forza physics are not all that and then claiming it's possible to race on guard rails like in that gif ?
So, why are some of you guys, who really NEVER played a forza game, in this thread ?

The same question keeps popping up in my head too, it's just a ton of people who have never ever played Forza 3, which in rage (don't know why they are so angry) simply post endless of bullshit about Forza 3.

Any REAL racing fan should know that both the Forza and GT series are amazing. One may have better graphics than the other, one may have better physics than the other, but at the end of the day they are amazing games. Only fanboys will miss this out since they simply will only play one of the games because the other game is on "the wrong hardware".

 

[KillerAJD]

I got to take a few laps in the demo tonight at my cousins house. I was there to fix his computer, but he let me play it for a bit. The handling was something I had to get used to, but it wasn't bad. It was cool coming around the turn, then slamming the gas, causing the rear end to swing out, lol. However, sitting 3 feet from a 42 inch screen makes any game look unflattering, so I can't really give an opinion graphics wise. Will get when I get a 360 for sure though!

 

[painful fart]

It does, I didn't say it doesn't, I just said that I like how it behaves in GT5, which in my opinion better conveys what a car is going through. You can see in the 60fps clips how as you turn in GT5 the car tilts to the outside, and in Forza 3 it's harder to see it.

http://www.gamersyde.com/stream_forza_motorsport_3_audi_r8_hood_view_60_fps-13046_en.html

http://www.gamersyde.com/stream_gran_turismo_5_gamescom_hood_view_60_fps-12581_en.html

Thanks for clarifying.

I read this thread for posts like yours, all the xbots and PS3 fans that run on autopilot are annoying as hell, but it´s a good thing that they stopped contaminating the other two threads. :lol

 

[spwolf]

of course it does, but to be honest visual representation of body roll while turning should be more apparent; cars don't lean as much as you'd expect when turning.
GT does it better especially when it comes to small production cars, which still seem to have too stiff suspensions in forza.
But of course Forza simulates this, it's even possible to roll a car by simply taking a sharp turn while driving fast.



Btw, what's up with people saying forza physics are not all that and then claiming it's possible to race on guard rails like in that gif ?
So, why are some of you guys, who really NEVER played a forza game, in this thread ?

weird, you would think it would all be using same physics.

 

[antiquegamer]

Yeah, let's totally get back to you calling everyone who disagrees with you a "fanatic," and Turn10 war criminals :lol

So much entertainment in this thread, thanks for all the laugh, Gaffers.:lol

 

[Dina]

Not a fact.

Yes it is a fact. You should see the stuff livery editors made in Forza 1 with a very limited amount of layers to play with.

This skyrocketed in F2, and I can only see it improve in F3 with even more shapes, texts, colours to play with. It has also become so much easier to browse and buy because of the new auction house. Add the storefront for those easy to make, easy to sell emblems of logo's of your favorite sportsteam.

Basically, like tuning, drifting or extensive time trial competition, the livery editor adds an entirely new layer to the game, appealing to different people. It's not uncommon to spend 16 hours painting (my top, but I'm sure people have taken even longer) a single car and then selling it for about the same price I would have gotten if I would have raced for 16 hours.