empty vessel
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For having beliefs?
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Mass riots happening in Venezuela, 3 dead, dozens injured
- Thread starter Leopold
- Start date
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For having beliefs?
For judging the validity of the protester's actions toward their government. Unless your Venezuelan?
Edit: perhaps you could define why you believe the conditions you stated in your post are not met. Do you have evidence of such?
Venezuelan here, this article explains a lot of why the people protest and why is it only the "middle class" doing it.
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-venezeulas-middle-class-is-taking-to-the-streets/
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-venezeulas-middle-class-is-taking-to-the-streets/
That is a very good article, thanks. Anyone who's interested in the situation should read it, imo
Besides that Is hard to protest when you are living near the wolf's den. I can understand Why some slum's communities simply cannot take street and protest. But They are also jaded of this reality as the rest of us.
Today there were another death reported by hand of damned militia forces (the infamously called "colectivos"). Adriana Urquiola, a Venevision sign language performer was killed by two shots.
And of course, the government media shifted the blame from the actual killers to the blocked streets. Disgusting.
I cannot describe how disgusted I am right now. Nevertheless, We are suffering the consequences for letting this blight thrives beyond measure. We allowed that nowadays they have a large army of heavily armed minions paid with our taxes. The regime controls all of our institutions, our imports, our food, our money, our media, our future and almost every aspect of our lives which even is limitated for rampant delinquency .
But I certaintly now this struggle is irreversible. Try to look back and you will soon realize our previous reality exists no more, meh, that previous reality was far from insufferable anyways.
The ships are burned. The only path is forward.
empty vessel
Member
As far as I can tell, Adriana Urquiola and National Guardsman Miguel Antonio Parra appear to have lost their lives due to the opposition's terrorism, just as many others have.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...498474-b365-11e3-bab2-b9602293021d_story.html
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/24/us-venezuela-protests-idUSBREA2N17Y20140324
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...498474-b365-11e3-bab2-b9602293021d_story.html
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/24/us-venezuela-protests-idUSBREA2N17Y20140324
Dat oil wealth.
empty vessel
Member
Because it fits the pattern of the opposition's violent defense of its illegal barricades. And, no, I don't believe that the Venezuelan government armed its citizen supporters. I find the Venezuelan opposition's conspiracies to be as fantastic as the American tea party's, to be honest.
Guerrillas in the Mist
Member
It's funny, I've had people (almost always Americans) wonder how on earth we can live without a Constitution. "Couldn't the Queen just invoke her powers... couldn't the government just change laws and imprison people indefinitely?" Yet I live here relatively safe in the knowledge that this won't happen outside of a WW3-type scenario.
Frankly, a Constitution isn't worth the paper it's written on if there isn't a tradition of elites following these rules.
It may sound fantastic to you, but it is a reality here. There are dozens of armed groups (commonly called "colectivos") defending the government. Of course they deny being armed, they have their "social movement" facade, but everyone knows the truth.
Both Adriana Urquiola and Miguel Parra's murder are regrettable events that took place in the protests scenario, but Urquiola was killed by a group of men who came shooting down on the barricade with the intention of killing the protesters; to say she was killed by the "opposition's terrorism" is being apologist to the actual murderers.
There are several evidences which prove Government's implications with armed civilians(militias). You're free to look up for them, I believe this post have some.
HeHe Fantasy. I find very ironic your posture. Because.....
You also found Chávez crackpot accusation fantastic too?
And this one government's conspiracy too?
Right. Because barricades are like terran bunkers with units inside, automatically shoots on sight.
I'll copy the witnesses's tweets:
Acabo de hablar con mi hermano, quien pudo contarme lo que pasó en Los Nuevos Teques:
José M. Orsini (@josema_orsini) March 24, 2014
La muchacha asesinada en efecto estaba embarazada. Se había bajado de un bus ya que la barricada puesta por los del Barrio Buenos Aires
José M. Orsini (@josema_orsini) March 24, 2014
Tenía bloqueada la Panamericana en el Km. 24. La muchacha iba con su novio, no eran parte de los manifestantes de la zona.
José M. Orsini (@josema_orsini) March 24, 2014
Una camioneta bajó desde el Barrio Buenos Aires llena de chamos armados, quienes dispararon en contra de algunos que salieron de LNT
José M. Orsini (@josema_orsini) March 24, 2014
A desmontar la barricada. La muchacha recibió un impacto de bala y cayó arrodillada al frente de la casa de mis viejos.
José M. Orsini (@josema_orsini) March 24, 2014
Mi prima, enfermera, intentó auxiliarla. La PoliMiranda llegó, pero ya era tarde. La camioneta ya se había ido.
José M. Orsini (@josema_orsini) March 24, 2014
El novio de la chama gritaba por su novia y su hijo. Los del barrio Buenos Aires gritaban "¡Vengan a buscarnos pues, Chavez Vive!".
José M. Orsini (@josema_orsini) March 24, 2014
Mi hermano, quien me relató esto por tlf, no deja de llorar. Él también tiene una chica embarazada, y pensar en perder a su hija lo puso mal
José M. Orsini (@josema_orsini) March 24, 2014
And "Illegal" you say. Again, oh the irony. Someone who supports a terrorist regime that the only legal things they respect are....well.........em.....
................................ Seriously they respect nothing.
You want a recent example? Diosdado revoked Maria Corina Machado as a current National Assembly's deputy, and now they are claiming she left her charge for her own.
About barricades: Article 350 and 333.
Art 333
TODO VENEZOLANO INVESTIDO O NO DE AUTORIDAD TIENE EL DEBER Y LA OBLIGACION DE UTILIZAR TODOS LOS MECANISMOS A SU ALCANCE PARA RESTABLECER EL ESTADO DE DERECHO, CUANDO EL MISMO HAYA SIDO VULNERADO.
Art 350
EL PUEBLO DE VENEZUELA, FIEL A SU TRADICIÓN REPUBLICANA, A SU LUCHA POR LA INDEPENDENCIA, LA PAZ Y LA LIBERTAD, DESCONOCERÁ CUALQUIER REGIMEN, LEGISLACION O AUTORIDAD QUE CONTRARIE LOS VALORES, PRINCIPIOS Y GARANTIAS DEMOCRATICAS O MENOSCABE LOS DERECHOS HUMANOS.
Allow me write you something to make it clear:
1) THE OPOSSITION IN GENERAL (MUD) DON'T SUPPORT BARRICADES. AND THEY DON'T WANT TO "OUST" MADURO. THEY NEGOCIATE OUR RIGHTS TO KEEP STATUS QUO. THEY ARE IN CONNIVANCE, AND IS A LONG EXPLANATION.
2) THE OPOSSITION ONLY ARRANGE PROTEST'S MARCH.
And as I wrote you before. Nicolas Maduro was a candidate by force, his candidacy was illegal and therefore they broke our right's state. After that, everything they do is illegal.
We use (the citizens, the students, not opposition political parties), barricades to protect us against tiranny. When they assault our neighborhood shooting ramdonly, throwing gas grenades, and commiting vandalism.
Therefore, We are in LEGITIMATE civil disobedience. And They want to stop us at all cost. Even the opposition wants to stop it.
Fortunately the facts are in plain sight. You can keep on writing your neoliberal violent fascist opposition vs legitimate government propaganda's nonsense as you please.
Opposition's violent defense of the barricades? Could you elaborate on this, please? I'll agree with you that they are illegal, though.
On the subject of the government armed groups, as others have said there is a lot of evidence to support this. In fact in these past protests it's been quite clear honestly. I also encourage you to, if you haven't already, investigate Lina Ron's role during Chavez presidency before she passed, and the results of it.
One of these groups actually shot towards the buildings of the people protesting and destroyed some cars that were inside garages on February 18th on my neighborhood. All of this happened literally in the block of one of the three biggest television channels of the country. They didn't even ran the story, and simply made a tweet about it (that said nothing about the shots, and only said that the group had "passed" through the neighborhood) take from that what you will.
There's plenty of evidence of this, some already posted, what is your counter evidence, besides Maduro's ramblings? Your political beliefs have really blinded you, so I don't know why we even try, nothing short of Maduro himself shooting would make you change your mind, and even then I'm sure you will somehow find an explanation.
nelsonroyale
Member
Resource wealth outside of the West all to often goes hand in hand with instability unfortunately. I think the students are a good poster child, and on an individual level I definitely sympathise with some of the issues they articulate. On the other hand, this is a real conflict fought over class divisions and economic models. Neo-liberalism vs a socialist protectionist model... Venezuela is an awesome country and this situation pains me.
Mantidor: I think some arms of the government have facilitated arms to segments of supporters, perhaps against the grain, but it happens. Just as I suspect, the protestors are also seeing supplies from internal and external sources.
Mantidor: I think some arms of the government have facilitated arms to segments of supporters, perhaps against the grain, but it happens. Just as I suspect, the protestors are also seeing supplies from internal and external sources.
Care to provide a source on that? Theres plenty of evidence that the colectivos are being supplied by the government and that cuba has certain degree of control over them, but I have seen nothing about someone supporting protesters.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
Leopoldo López wrote an editorial in the NYT today
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/26/opinion/venezuelas-failing-state.html?ref=opinion
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/26/opinion/venezuelas-failing-state.html?ref=opinion
empty vessel
Member
Lopez played a role in the 2002 coup. Had he done that in the US, he would have been in prison since that time and for the rest of his life. Could you imagine what charges the US would bring against a person who managed to arrest and detain Eric Holder in a rebellion? Manning got 35 years just for releasing documents.
http://articles.latimes.com/2006/jul/19/world/fg-venezuela19
Lopez is an enemy of people who believe in democratic governance.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
^
Damn you! Haha
I especially liked the non sequitor and shift to criticism of another country which is not named Venezuela, and another criminal whos crimes have nothing to do with the topic at hand.
I also agree that crimes just on accusation (or even conviction) should permanently disbar a person from any political activity. They should permanently be ignored.
I'm hope you will join me in calling Chavez an enemy of the people and ignore all statements for his illegal activity against the democratically elected government of Venezuela in 1992. We mustn't forget. I know he was responding to widespread abuses of power but as you've so articulated in this thread the protestors sometimes committed illegal activities and their goal was the overthrow of a democratic government. They could have waited till 1993 and voted out his party but instead they removed the president from power. I think you can agree that some action to preserve the peoples choice was warranted. Even if it meant elimination of certain human and basic rights.
That's obviously sarcasm, but a lot of it I think can help illustrate how your position isn't based on principles but politics. Accuse me of not having principles, fine. I disagree but I'm not really ashamed of the hope that even if Maudro survives this and continues as president it's only a set back for human rights and democracy in Venezuela 'por ahora'.
Damn you! Haha
Well argued rebuttles to his points.
I especially liked the non sequitor and shift to criticism of another country which is not named Venezuela, and another criminal whos crimes have nothing to do with the topic at hand.
I also agree that crimes just on accusation (or even conviction) should permanently disbar a person from any political activity. They should permanently be ignored.
I'm hope you will join me in calling Chavez an enemy of the people and ignore all statements for his illegal activity against the democratically elected government of Venezuela in 1992. We mustn't forget. I know he was responding to widespread abuses of power but as you've so articulated in this thread the protestors sometimes committed illegal activities and their goal was the overthrow of a democratic government. They could have waited till 1993 and voted out his party but instead they removed the president from power. I think you can agree that some action to preserve the peoples choice was warranted. Even if it meant elimination of certain human and basic rights.
That's obviously sarcasm, but a lot of it I think can help illustrate how your position isn't based on principles but politics. Accuse me of not having principles, fine. I disagree but I'm not really ashamed of the hope that even if Maudro survives this and continues as president it's only a set back for human rights and democracy in Venezuela 'por ahora'.
In that line of thought Chavez should have never seen the presidency, much less be a free man, after his coup attempt against Perez in 1992.
Edit: beaten to oblivion lol
empty vessel
Member
The point was to add sorely lacking perspective. There is a double standard being applied out of ignorance, and I am trying to educate you. On the one hand, there is a double standard with respect to how the current Venezuelan government is being treated vis-a-vis the American government, which is of course the relevance of talking about the United States. On the other hand, there is the double standard of how the current Venezuelan government is being treated vis-a-vis prior Venezuelan governments. Venezuela has historically been marred by political turbulence and the bottom line is that this is a class struggle in which people are choosing sides. The appeals to principle and criticisms of the Venezuelan government made by the Venezuelan opposition are obviously empty rhetoric. Chavez spent a year in prison after the 1992 coup, and the neoliberal Venezuelan government did not hesitate to use force to quell the rebellion, including summary executions. By contrast, Lopez didn't go to prison at all, and the Venezuelan government has refrained from the kind of systemic terror that previous governments engaged in (and which the Venezuelan opposition is now engaged in). Maduro, for his part, has never played a part in any coup. So the question becomes what is the cause of your inconsistent treatment?
I think Lopez is an enemy of democracy for far more reasons than his participation in the 2002 coup. He seeks to advance the economic interests of Venezuela's economic elite (of which he is a member) at the expense of average Venezuelans, and is willing to use deceit to accomplish those ends. For what it's worth, you should know that Lopez is like the Ted Cruz of the Venezuelan opposition movement, disliked even by a significant faction. You should know who you are gong to bat for and not champion a person just because he is an enemy of a government your own government has indoctrinated you to despise.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
Continue your defense of a government which
. The rest of us will live in the real world.
BTW: Stop trying to 'educate' people its condescending
Zuhzuhzombie!!
Member
The Perez government sold the country out to the IMF and were preparing to enact austerity measures on an already poor country. The same austerity measures that have destroyed Greece, Spain, Portugal, etc. The quality of life for all Venezuelans rapidly declined. The Perez government then went on to abduct, disappear, and murder approximately 3000 people went massive protests broke out from all classes of Venezuelan society.
This is what prompted the coup attempt in 1992 and these are the people who the current rigidly class divided protesters are demanding put back into place. It's not a 1:1 comparison as the PSUV still has immense support and standards of living have not fallen for Venezuela's poor, whom the PSUV claims to represent and is their power base.
You're defending a group that is not wholly popular, divided by class, and at least at this moment, materialistically worse than the people they want to replace.
Why?
This is what prompted the coup attempt in 1992 and these are the people who the current rigidly class divided protesters are demanding put back into place. It's not a 1:1 comparison as the PSUV still has immense support and standards of living have not fallen for Venezuela's poor, whom the PSUV claims to represent and is their power base.
You're defending a group that is not wholly popular, divided by class, and at least at this moment, materialistically worse than the people they want to replace.
Why?
NYCmetsfan
Banned
I am not defending the Perez government, I'm just claiming EV has no problem with the things he's decrying the opposition for doing when they are done by anti-western and socialistic groups.
Today my city Puerto Ordaz was assaulted by an overwhelming amount of warfare army, police patrols, GNB, intelligence agents, etc. More than one hundred as far I can tell. They took control of residencial areas where the people were putting barricades. Locals reported several raids inside the buildings. Even there were a helicopter flying around over the area for a few minutes.
This happened several hours ago. This morning.
This happened several hours ago. This morning.
empty vessel
Member
I am claiming (1) that the problems are not the same; (2) that critics of the Venezuelan government are not educated about what is happening in Venezuela; and (3) that defenders of the Venezuelan opposition and its violence, particularly of the Western sort, are applying a double standard (mostly, presumably, due to number (2), which is in turn mostly a product of a US public relations campaign by the US politico-economic elite against the current Venezuelan government.).
NYCmetsfan
Banned
So your claiming "things are different", an argument you refuse to allow to your opponents (AKA double standard!), as well continued shifting the conversation to the US to argue a different point that's unrelated even if you claim its not.
That's exactly what I've claimed.
But I'm told there is no 'systemic terror' and human rights violations by the government. I think you're a unreliable capitalist source.Today my city Puerto Ordaz was assaulted by an overwhelming amount of warfare army, police patrols, GNB, intelligence agents, etc. More than one hundred as far I can tell. They took control of residencial areas where the people were putting barricades. Locals reported several raids inside the buildings. Even there were a helicopter flying around over the area for a few minutes.
This happened several hours ago. This morning.
(Sarcasm aside, stay safe dude. Your country should have to deal with this.)
Sounds awfully similar to the current situation.
Venezuela, even after unstopped 15 years of Chavismo, and peak oil prices, it's still a poor country, let that sink in.
empty vessel
Member
No, I am claiming that the right-wing's version of what is happening in Venezuela is factually false and that defenders of the Venezuelan right-wing operate under a double standard. Establishing double standards obviously requires reference to another standard (be it the US, the prior Venezuelan government, etc.).
The person who told you that is correct. The government is trying to contend with right wing rebellion, violence, and terrorism, but it has done so with abundant restraint. I am sure that there have been abuses, as there is any law enforcement operation in any country on earth. The Venezuelan government has been dealing with those as well (probably better than the US government does). What I am wondering is why you believe a government's attempt to enforce laws, with its undoubted occasional abuse of law enforcement of power, should require that government's overthrow. I am wondering why you are not calling for the overthrow of the Obama Administration in view of its violent repression of the OWS protests and the law enforcement abuses that are rampant in the US. In short, I am wondering why you are applying a standard to Venezuela that you do not apply to the US.
Maybe that's what you intended to do, but what was inferred from your post was that by participating in a coup, Lopez became an enemy of democracy and should have been imprisoned for life. While failing to acknowledge the fact that the current government came to power after Chávez participated in a coup (in a much more direct way than Lopez).
If the government had the proof to put Lopez in jail for his participation in the coup, they not only could, but SHOULD have done so. But, for whatever reason they didn't.
empty vessel
Member
I did not imply that Lopez should have been imprisoned for life. I said if he had done what he did in the US, he would have been (and almost all Americans, but especially including APKmetsfan, would agree that he should be). This raises the question why APKmetsfan is championing a man who, if he had done the same actions in the United States, he would believe is a criminal who should be imprisoned for life and not somebody who deserves to be published in the New York Times and championed.
Fair enough on the beginning of this post. The rest seems to be directed more towards APKmetsfan, so I feel out of place saying anything about it
NYCmetsfan
Banned
I'm glad you know what I would do. As you would say "the situations are different"
You're constant shifts to the US in ever post are telling. Argue them in a different thread, they have no barring on the abuses of the current Venezuelan government
empty vessel
Member
What monkey down from where?
I assume you mean Maduro. Unfortunately, he's not the problem himself, he's just the guy that's there right now, if anything I fear the day Diosdado Cabello becomes president and I hope he never does
Nicolas Maduro.
I know :S but Maduro is dumb, like really really dumb, the world isn't taking him seriously. how the country is going into fire and the international community isn't doing anything is beyond me. That coul d be because arguing with maduro or trying to rationalize is like arguing with a monkey.I assume you mean Maduro. Unfortunately, he's not the problem himself, he's just the guy that's there right now, if anything I fear the day Diosdado Cabello becomes president and I hope he never does
I'll never be able to take Maduro seriously, he's North Korea-like insane. This is not a person that should be in charge of a country.
benjipwns
Banned
George W. Bush thought God spoke to him.
Ipso facto, anything Maduro does to continue the revolution is justified.
Zuhzuhzombie!!
Member
The PSUV isn't really that socialist. Outside of the occasional Nationalization and co-op their entire "socialist" scheme involves the Mission Mercal, which is just funding local planning groups and their projects. We do that in the US. Theirs focuses on access to food and the like, but the system of delivery and funding is similar.
It's pretty obvious chavistas and Chavez had little to no idea about actual socialism or actual fascism, they repeat buzzwords like parrots.
It is the chavistas themselves who use the term "socialism", from "socialism of the 21st century" to "homeland, socialism or death" in their speeches. It sticks unfortunately, even with the opposition.
empty vessel
Member
Your brainwashing is continuing apace, I see. Eat it up.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
Brainwashing? I speak spanish and can read the tweet for myself
https://twitter.com/DrodriguezMinci/status/449199994978177024
To bad you could have gotten the TRUTH© from her from your impartial news source if you had been in London this past Saturday!.
http://venezuelanalysis.com/event/10505
empty vessel
Member
This has nothing to do with what I said.
empty vessel
Member
APKmetsfan will especially enjoy that one from his political ally.
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