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Mass riots happening in Venezuela, 3 dead, dozens injured
- Thread starter Leopold
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A lot of people I know would leave in a heartbeat if had/given the chance so its weird seeing the opposite, but you must know the situation really well already from your girlfriend so you know this will certainly be a change of air.
Here in my city the protest have had strong days (the first weeks specially) but other than that people are going to work as usual, so while in some places the protests are going strong in others its already winding down. At any case if it does return to "normal" the situation has already changed, the opposition (the people opposed to the government, not the political figures) has lost a lot of fear but at the same time the government has lost more of its facade and they are most likely to do as they please from now on, even more than before.
I was reading a very interesting article today about it from el Tiempo, a colombian newspaper.
http://www.eltiempo.com/mundo/latin...s-dinero-pero-sigue-igual-de-pobre_13601568-4
In spanish, sorry, google translate might help? but well, the headline sums it up quite well, venezuelans have more money, but they are still poor. They have the paradox of not having running water but having their houses full of electronics.
And as it's mentioned in the end, that is kind of the intention of the goverment, as the minister of education said "we are not going to pull people out of poverty so that they can become middle class and opposition to the government". Chavez only gave away part of the earnings from the times of the oil boom to the people, but just having more money does not take you out of poverty if there are no other social programs to give people opportunities. What good is for them to have more money if the inflation is the worst in the world and there's no food in the local store?
¯\_(ツ
_/¯So, today there was an awful situation in one of Caracas' neighborhoods. A group of people opposing the government made a barricade in their sector (the avenue they closed is one of the most important in the city) like they have been doing these past weeks. Then, pro government armed groups with motorcycles (the so called "colectivos") came to remove the barricades; after that I don't know who started what, but it ended up in people from the buildings throwing things to the armed guys, the motorcycle guys were also throwing things into apartments, and also shooting towards them, at some point they also tried to break in to some buildings.
Then, the National Guard came, at started shooting tear gas also to the apartments; according to an article I read, at that point the Colectivo went away, although I saw some pictures of them with the National Guard right next to them and doing nothing, even seems like they are working together, but it's hard to tell.
A National Guard was killed, which makes me think some people were shooting from the apartments as well. And also a 23 year old "Mototaxista" (a motorcycle taxi), I'm not sure if he was part of the Colectivo or he was just around the area.
PS: a lot of others stuff happened, but I found this to be the worst. Though with the scarcity of information it's difficult to be sure :/
A video from today with the national police beating a protester:
http://youtu.be/XDHAhCqwV2I
Then, the National Guard came, at started shooting tear gas also to the apartments; according to an article I read, at that point the Colectivo went away, although I saw some pictures of them with the National Guard right next to them and doing nothing, even seems like they are working together, but it's hard to tell.
A National Guard was killed, which makes me think some people were shooting from the apartments as well. And also a 23 year old "Mototaxista" (a motorcycle taxi), I'm not sure if he was part of the Colectivo or he was just around the area.
PS: a lot of others stuff happened, but I found this to be the worst. Though with the scarcity of information it's difficult to be sure :/
A video from today with the national police beating a protester:
http://youtu.be/XDHAhCqwV2I
chalkitdown1
Member
Anyone watch the CNN interview with Maduro?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=DIKZ-ItXeuY
Such a fucking cunt, this clown.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=DIKZ-ItXeuY
Such a fucking cunt, this clown.
I read the interview, im surprised the guy managed to keep his cool, there were a couple of moment where she grilled him but he went full damage control mode, specially when she criticized the economy and the fact that the living standards are lower. Oh and its 19 deaths.
Yeah, things are actually great here, the stats are bullshit just ask the people! He forgot to say that a percentage of the new houses given to the people actually used to belonged to other people before he took it away from them, but fuck it.
Here is the full transcript.
Yeah, things are actually great here, the stats are bullshit just ask the people! He forgot to say that a percentage of the new houses given to the people actually used to belonged to other people before he took it away from them, but fuck it.
Here is the full transcript.
chalkitdown1
Member
She laughs at him to his face, that'll give you an idea of how it turns out. He pretty much lies for the entire interview.
Also, thread title needs updating, unfortunately.
Also, thread title needs updating, unfortunately.
wth did he really give an interview to fucking CNN, the network he forced out of the country? LOL
It's so unfortunate most chavistas are in it as some sort of cult, I mean you only need to see them with tiny pictures of Chavez as some sort of idol, and fanatics cannot be reasoned with, which really makes me worry for the future of Venezuela :/
Because the only one in Latinoamerica with enough military power to do something is Colombia but the president is trying to make the country the new Switzerland being the super friend of everyone. Meh. The US could do something but I'm sure they have something bigger for giving their attention to.
The number of deaths has risen to 28. Yesterday students that were protesting in Venezuela's Central University were shot with gas bombs, some were arrested.
Later the situation that is now "common" these nights was repeated in Altamira/Chacao and other places...
Today there's been 1 month and a day since the first three deaths, btw.
Later the situation that is now "common" these nights was repeated in Altamira/Chacao and other places...
Today there's been 1 month and a day since the first three deaths, btw.
spectral_method
Banned
This is so depressing.
Guys, is this thing for real? basically the government is threatening to throw acid on the faces of anyone who dares to call them "fascists", now I know they are insane, but Cabello doesn't seem like someone stupid enough to say this in public without expecting the outrage of the international community.
El chiguiro is basically Venezuela's The Onion.
Reneledarker
Banned
The article says: "After that, his nominated successor, Maduro, won the presidential elections in April 2013. But this time the right-wing candidate, Henrique Capriles Radonski, came within 250,000 votes (under one percent) of winning."
Mmm for what I know and my Venezuelan anarchist friends tell me both the opposition and the government are at fault and are using violence (one by enticing the masses/ the other by using the repressive tools of the State).
I do not defend the article 100%, because as an anarchist I have some epistemological problems with Marxism, but it is a class struggle. And you do not have to be rich to be on the "rich" side, you just have to be in favor of their ideology. That is why a class struggle goes beyond this rich/poor dichotomy.
And the article calls both violent.
It just look to me that if one criticizes your movement you immediately invalidate it. In the end you are just using the same tactics than the government you want to end.
Sadly this looks like a lose/lose situation to Venezuela.
The mayor of the town where the protests started has been detained. Also today a group of students that were meeting in Venezuela's Central Univercity were brutally attacked by armed groups associated with the Government, some were robbed of everything they had and left in their underwear. Because of this all classes and activities have been suspended.
And this is only a small part of what happened, I truly hope that when all is done we, as a country, can come out of this with a better future.
And this is only a small part of what happened, I truly hope that when all is done we, as a country, can come out of this with a better future.
Reneledarker
Banned
That is what I hope, but the government, chavistas and the far right opposition are not the solution.
May I ask, where do you teach/work? That Sucks.
Yeap, also heard today that Not one but Two Majors have been Arrested, this "Scarano" and "Ceballos".
Id like to know/be in touch with other Venezuelans here.
Im from Maracaibo BTW.
Oh and reporting of the situation here, last saturday an attempt happened at URBE (University/College), a group of "Tupamaros" or similar "Colectivo" tried to break into the building and were throwing rocks. Meanwhile Cops and Guards "surrounding and protecting" did nothing. Info came first hand, my Cousin is doing a postgraduate degree there and had to leave inmediately.
That went unnoticed, Im not even sure it made it to twitter.
dragonflys545
Member
My GF left and came to the US because of this BS. I'm glad she did cause it's looks scary as hell.
Actually I didn't hear anything about what happened in URBE so there you go.
Maracaibo here as well!
Even on GAF the situation is being ignored.
It's unfortunate that the Russia situation has left you guys alone, and honestly I think there's also a bias, if these were a right wing governement with student protests the media would be all over that, but a leftist government with student protests? it doesn't have the same ring to it.
I really don't see a short term solution, things are going to be pretty tough in the next years.
Even on GAF the situation is being ignored.
It's unfortunate that the Russia situation has left you guys alone, and honestly I think there's also a bias, if these were a right wing governement with student protests the media would be all over that, but a leftist government with student protests? it doesn't have the same ring to it.
I really don't see a short term solution, things are going to be pretty tough in the next years.
Yeah, I agree with everything in this post.
I'm from Caracas, btw
Indeed there's also a bias. Most south american leaders support Maduro's government and those they don't really support Maduro prefer to keep silent, is very ironic how economical interests weigh more than life and freedom for the "humanist" left wing.
No surprise they ended up being the same crap as the right wing they openly despise.
I think this conflict will linger for at least 2 or 5 months.
This always reminds me the hilarious isla presidencial. (I linked to the specific line but the whole episode is hilarious).
Yeah i saw that episode. One of the best.
Anyway. Today 22 countries voted against a open OEA session. Now I understand which is the real purpose of Petrocaribe's money.
The venezuelan representative (an obvious regime's minion) claims that a secretive closed session is more transparent than a open one. At least most of the present audience laugh at her face. She might think She can underestimate others's intelligence abywhere because of support of blatantly biased media (Telesur for example). Not surprise there.
I really feel disgusted for brazilian politics right now, the brazilian ambassador said at the OEA that all the slaughtering ,torture, vandalism etc. happening right now in Venezuela is a mere "circus act".
empty vessel
Member
Venezuela acts against opposition mayors (Al Jazeera America)
The current Brazilian government will never support a change of government in Venezuela right now and in my opinion they are right. As long as the protesters are mainly middle class, the government will have Brazilian support. Here in Brazil we have what we call the "traditional middle class", mainly families that are part of the middle class since the 70-80's at least; they hate every left wing government and will call them corrupts and communists given the opportunity. The Brazilian government has no reason to believe the protests are more than a class issue, where the Venezuelan equivalent of the "traditional middle class" are the dominant force in the protests. You might say that almost half of the population voted against Maduro, but I doubt that all these people support overthrowing the government. If the opposition wants to come to power, then they have to win ellections and not call for the US military to step in. Besides, I'm sure that Dilma remembers very well what happened in Brazil in 1964: the urban middle class protested against a elected left wing government supported by the majority of the country and what followed was a military dictatorship supported by the US which tortured and killed many.
Protests are not about overthrowing the government (of course there are people thinking like that, there always is) there are actual demands being made. The government could have done something about that, but instead they are repressing, putting people in jail unfairly, etc...
Btw, the decision to remove Scarano from his publicly elected post (with 75% of votes) and send him to a military jail is very, very illegal.
I guess the millions who protested in Brazil last year are all middle class "bourgeois" for the brazilian government now.
A crappy government is a crappy government, whether they are left or right. Basic democracy tenents like freedom of speech are being threatened in Venezuela, but the left will clinch to the "bourgeois" boogyman as long as it can I guess.
This is sad: http://youtu.be/MgNnh17wbRM
SlipperySlope
Banned
Holy cow. Good luck Machado! My prayers go out to you and your family.
At least she is self-aware enough of the double-think piece of shit government she represents.
empty vessel
Member
While I am sure there are many peaceful protesters (and legitimate grievances to protest), it isn't accurate to say that the protests themselves have been peaceful. There has been willful obstruction, e.g., the blocking of roads, and even murders of National Guardsmen and others tasked with removing the barricades that protesters have erected.
Most Westerners view protesters like these as anarchists who are fair game for police brutality. Note that I don't. I personally am not opposed to disruptive civil disobedience and even violence in the service of a just end that can be characterized as self-defense against oppressive forces, but I do not believe those conditions are satisfied in Venezuela nor do I support the substantive ends the Venezuelan opposition seeks. That means that, by and large, I see the opposition as the aggressors.
The government has tried to initiate dialogue with the opposition, but the latter have no interest in it, because contrary to what you think, the goal of the opposition's leaders is indeed to overthrow the government, and the protests are the means to that end. (Note that this does not mean I disagree with you that individual protesters may not necessarily have those same goals.)
It would be a terrible precedent for them to go against a democratically elected government, specially since it is a left-wing government and a major contributor for Latin American countries to have closer relationships.
I'm not following what has happened in Venezuela, my only point of view is what happened in Honduras in 2009 when Manuel Zelaya (a very corrupt left-wing pro-Chavez president) was kicked out of presidency by the right-wing oligarchs of the country. After that we had the worst right wing 4 years government of our history and the country is going to the shitter, now we basically have a right-wing dictatorship for years to come (they were re-elected by clear fraud).
This has to be solved via democratic elections, which Maduro won a few months ago. You can't ask other countries to mess with that. If you look at the list of supporting countries, aside from Chile and maybe Perú, the rest are right-wing governments. If this was a right-wing dictatorship, they wouldn't be saying a word.
In the end, the only way to kick Maduro out should be via elections. Because you can't really know if the majority of the country is actually against Maduro.
It was a vote to have an open hearing at the OAS, how is it justifiable to censor the venezuelan opposition intervention to the press?
The protests had two phases: the first phase was when middle class students, unions and NGOs were protesting against increases in the public transportation fares and the second phase started when the middle class "bourgeois" decided to join and the protests against "corruption" and other generic things started. It is not a surprise that the first phase of the protests gave results, as the people protesting had a clear goal and so they were heard by the government (not only Dilma, but the state governments too, right and left wing governments alike), while the second phase had no result at all, after all shouting political nonsense and generic complaints leads nowhere. Even analysts were surprised by middle class "bourgeois" lack of political knowledge...
Just to be clear: it makes no sense protesting against corruption, because no one supports corruption. It would be a good idea to name who are the corrupt politicians and avoid voting for them in the next election, but I'm pretty sure they'll be back for another term next year. Another common complaint of the middle class "bourgeois" was that too much money was being spent in the world cup preparations while too few was being spent on public health and education. If those "bourgeois" had some political knowledge, they would know that the government spends many times more money in education and public health in a year than they spent in the world cup preparations during six years. Spending the "world cup money" on public health and education would improve nothing. Even more, the major part of the world cup money was spent improving the public transportation system in the host cities, not on stadiums... Those protesting for a better and cheaper public transportation system had all my support. The middle class "bourgeois" who know nothing about politics and what the government is really doing deserved to be ignored.
Now, I know that looking at the protests from the outside makes it difficult to understand what's really going on, so I admit I might be wrong, but from what I can see here in Brazil, the protesters are mainly of the middle class "bourgeois" kind and although they protest against legit issues, they also want to overthrow the government.
This. Overthrowing the government is inviting the right-wing oligarchs to take control. Even if you want a right wing government it's better to wait for elections, because then you will have the opportunity to vote for right wings candidates not linked to oligarchs.
While I am sure there are many peaceful protesters (and legitimate grievances to protest), it isn't accurate to say that the protests themselves have been peaceful. There has been willful obstruction, e.g., the blocking of roads, and even murders of National Guardsmen and others tasked with removing the barricades that protesters have erected.
Most Westerners view protesters like these as anarchists who are fair game for police brutality. Note that I don't. I personally am not opposed to disruptive civil disobedience and even violence in the service of a just end that can be characterized as self-defense against oppressive forces, but I do not believe those conditions are satisfied in Venezuela nor do I support the substantive ends the Venezuelan opposition seeks. That means that, by and large, I see the opposition as the aggressors.
The government has tried to initiate dialogue with the opposition, but the latter have no interest in it, because contrary to what you think, the goal of the opposition's leaders is indeed to overthrow the government, and the protests are the means to that end. (Note that this does not mean I disagree with you that individual protesters may not necessarily have those same goals.)
I don't recall saying that all the protests have been peaceful. There have been the kind of protests that you accurate mention in your post, but you fail to mention the many, many peaceful ones that have also taken place in these past months and that are actually the ones with the most amount of people.
I have nothing to say about the "dialogue" the government has tried to initiate. If you believe it's a real offer, that's your choice and I respect that point of view.
But my point still remains, people are on the streets protesting for very specific reasons (again, speaking generally) and the government has not done anything to address those issues, the contrary, really. And that has nothing to do with the goals of some leaders of the opposition (I'm thinking of Leopoldo Lopez and Maria Corina Machado when I say this)
I don't quite understand what you are saying there. Also, the OEA is a huge joke. I don't know why it still exists to be honest.
Nobody should mess with what is happening in Venezuela, except themselves. Sadly, if you set a precedent of other countries meddling in your internal business you could end up with a terrible scenario like Ukraine now with Russia.
I live in Brazil, for the most part, you are right, the protests became about nothing, but they were not really just the middle class at the end, I saw it with my own eyes. Brazil doesn't have such a huge middle class. That the middle class scares a government to the point they demonize them, like its happening in Venezuela and somewhat in Brazil, is really troubling to say the least.
What was shameful about Brazil and the rest of countries who voted like Brazil was supporting Nicaragua in doing this thing with doors closed to the press, there's no real "meddling" and that wasn't even what they were voting for. The OEA/OAS is indeed an enormous joke, even more after this.
In Porto Alegre, at least, it was only the middle class. I don't know how things were in the other places, but I really doubt that the poor were participating. The "new middle class", people who left poverty during Lula's government, I'm sure participated. Many of them despite the improvement in their living conditions still live in poor neighborhoods or "favelas". Maybe you're thinking of them?
I've been thinking. Maybe the Regime and its allies blatant attempt to silence Maria Corina at all cost at the OEA, might ended up being highly counterproductive for them.
Do you have any good links about what happened to Honduras in these years or its current situation? (There is no problem if they aren't in English)
Just in case, I'm not questioning your post, I'm just looking to educate myself about the current situation of Honduras after the coup. As you may imagine, the international media has been doing what it usually does in these cases.
In Rio I saw all kinds of people, mostly students, yes, but many poor people, (most vandalized unfortunately).
That does not mean much though, protests aren't special because of the people behind it, but why are the protesting for, when you are protesting against a government because you have trouble finding toilet paper or there are daily murders in your neighbourhood, it really doesn't diminish the protest that is mainly middle classes.
Seriously what are they really afraid of? and are they naive enough to think they can contain information? They are certainly out of touch about the modern world.
Interesting how the apologists quieted down after these posts. You can always tell what side of history to be on when one side starts attacking universities.
Here's an article from Private Eye, the UK's premier anti-corruption and satire magazine.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
Private eye is great. I wish we had something like that here in the US. There's something special about the British sense of humor that makes satire, irony and mocking so much more biting.
But the apologetics are getting tiring. In here and the Ukraine. The government is clearly in the wrong but it doesn't stop the anti western crusaders from obfuscating the situation. Which is ironic because the usual tactic from them is to strip all questions intent, context, ambiguity and differences from situations to paint the west in the worst possible light
Today this happened:
http://pic.twitter.com/0J5ybjhWeG
Now at night the house of a journalist who's lives in Altamira (one of the zones where things have been worst) was broken into by government forces and apparently they are trying to impute her because she had a gas mask and a bulletproof vest ( which is obviously very common if you are covering these protests)
http://pic.twitter.com/0J5ybjhWeG
Now at night the house of a journalist who's lives in Altamira (one of the zones where things have been worst) was broken into by government forces and apparently they are trying to impute her because she had a gas mask and a bulletproof vest ( which is obviously very common if you are covering these protests)
Well, don't you have a high opinion of yourself.
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