Support NeoGAF

[Togh]

Argonaut founder Jez San is someone who knows his way around gaming technology.

He coded the best-selling Starglider when he was still in his teens, bringing 3D visuals to hardware that had traditionally struggled with anything that wasn't 2D. Later, he would join forces with Nintendo to help create Star Fox and Stunt Race FX, before Argonaut released what is arguably one of its most beloved games: Croc.

Croc is about to get the HD treatment, and San has been speaking about it with My Life in Gaming. During the chat, San discusses the differences between Sega's Saturn and Sony's PlayStation – the two consoles which the original Croc was released on back in the day.

There's a common narrative that Saturn was weaker than PlayStation when it came to 3D visuals, but San refutes this stance:

The Saturn was more powerful, it shouldn't have been harder to develop for.

You are doing a port, so if anything you're trying to make it look as close to the PlayStation, and that's the hard thing.

But the Saturn itself is a very good system, and more powerful than the PlayStation... it was exceptionally more powerful than the PlayStation at the time, but we had built it for the PlayStation and the Saturn guys had to make it as close as they could.

Saturn Was "More Powerful Than PlayStation" Claims Argonaut Founder

"The Saturn itself is a very good system"

www.timeextension.com

 

[SMG]

Very powerful but too baroque and unpopular to have it shown off enough.

Outside of the Panzer Dragooon and VF games it rarely got pushed.

 

[oldergamer]

Saturn was the first console that required people to handle two processors at once. It was very powerful if you knew how to get the performance out of it. However in most cases outside of sega games. Everything was a port from PlayStation. Sega did add the second processor after seeing PlayStation 3D capabilities.

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

never

 

[Little Chicken]

 

[Nemesisuuu]

Nice way to celebrate 30th anniversary.

 

[Redneckerz]

There is Hellslave and Irreel, which is both a Quake Arena clone and a Unreal clone that look pretty snazzy.

 

[snapdragon]

Wasted potential

 

[RetroGamingUK]

Saturn was great at 3D when it came to games featuring large flat surfaces

VDP2 could be used similar to Mode 7 on SNES leaving VDP1 to focus all its polygon power. Great examples of this are…

- Panzer Dragoon series
- Virtua Cop series
- Virtua Fighter 2
- Laat Bronx
- Virtual On

However, games that were fully 3D where characters, enemies and entire levels comprised of quads (similar to polygons) just didn’t run well compared to their PlayStation counterparts…

- Tomb Raider
- Burning Rangers
- Quake (compared to Quake 2)

Apart from Sega Rally, Daytona CCE and Manx TT racing games ran like shit on the console too

 

[Aion002]

And still lost...

 

[RoboFu]

Very powerful but too baroque and unpopular to have it shown off enough.

Outside of the Panzer Dragooon and VF games it rarely got pushed.

This is a good way to put it.

All you need to do is go look up Saturn dev tools.

Sega didn't have a real sdk for a year or 2 then they wouldn't let third parties have it for another year or 2.

No one really got into using the 2 CPUs efficiently and
Everyone was moving to C while the no sdk Saturn made devs have to create their own APIs in assembly.

All of this isn't an excuse it's just historical record on what happened and another reason everyone flocked to the PlayStation which not only had a gpu that crunched transparencies like they were nothing but had a very easy to use sdk and single cpu set up. Another big PlayStation plus was that it could decompress textures on the fly in hardware. Neither Saturn nor the n64 had as good texture decompression.

 

[SJRB]

 

[Lysandros]

Certainly not in 3D department, quite the contrary. But every not so successful Sega console tend to become more powerful with each year passing, legendary stuff. That is unique to Sega.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

 

[TGO]

When it came to 2D stuff sure, but 3D?
Not even in the same ballpark.

 

[Warnen]

Best 2d games on Saturn still hold up, best 3d games on PlayStation look like shit now. All that you have to know.

Long live Sega!

 

[Windom Earle]

based take

 

[TGO]

Best 2d games on Saturn still hold up, best 3d games on PlayStation look like shit now. All that you have to know.

Long live Sega!

 

[MrTroubleMaker]

If the devs knew how to code for it, it could be better. Powerslave was better on the Saturn compared to the Playstation

Powerslave - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Horseganador]

PSX was much more powerful than Saturn and it proved this in most games, luckily there were no sites like DF back then because then it would have sold even less.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

Best 2d games on Saturn still hold up, best 3d games on PlayStation look like shit now. All that you have to know.

Long live Sega!

Interesting point, a comparison of the best looking 3D PS1 game vs the best looking 2D Saturn game…

 

[diffusionx]

Why does every thread about vintage Sega turn into a bunch of dorks trying to claim their failed system was actually better than the one that succeeded.

Like bro get over it. Just enjoy the Saturn on its own terms. Nobody actually cares about these comparisons except you "people".

 

[RetroGamingUK]

PSX was much more powerful than Saturn and it proved this in most games, luckily there were no sites like DF back then because then it would have sold even less.

Sega fans would have had a field day around Christmas 1996 though…



Nothing on PlayStation came close

 

[RetroGamingUK]

If the devs knew how to code for it, it could be better. Powerslave was better on the Saturn compared to the Playstation

Powerslave - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The PlayStation versions of Exhumed and Duke Nukem were just running on the CPU

 

[EverydayBeast]

Is this a statement to fire up Sony fanboys? And it’s a new argument coming out 30 years later, ps1 did something no one else was doing at that time, dual joysticks and switching from cartridges to disc.

 

[Papa_Wisdom]

My fondest gaming memories are my Saturn (closely followed by Dreamcast) days

There were only a handful of games on PlayStation I was jealous didn’t come to Saturn

(MGS, Ridge racer type 4, Rage racer, re 2/3, silent hill)

 

[cartman414]

PSX was much more powerful than Saturn and it proved this in most games, luckily there were no sites like DF back then because then it would have sold even less.

Could it run Radiant Silvergun without cutbacks?

 

[snapdragon]

Cult Classics + severely underrated systems that failed primarily due to company mismanagement instead of being pieces of shit without any worthwhile/unique exclusive games like the later Atari and Microsoft consoles.

It is good to see solid products that should have financially done much better when they were originally around finally getting the recognition they deserve

 

[Ecotic]

The way I understand it, having both the SH-2's share the same bus and not being able to access that bus at the same time made all the difference right? It nearly single-handedly negated much of the Saturn's power?

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

The way I understand it, having both the SH-2's share the same bus and not being able to access that bus at the same time made all the difference right? It nearly single-handedly negated much of the Saturn's power?

that's not it, the 3d chip called VDP1 has about 50% of the PS1's gpu. For you to understand, think of the Xbox Series S with 6.5TF and a 2D chip to try to match the Xbox Series X. That's it.

 

[PaintTinJr]

Best 2d games on Saturn still hold up, best 3d games on PlayStation look like shit now. All that you have to know.

Long live Sega!

Tekken 2 or 3, Iss Pro Evo 1 or 2, Colin McRae Rally 2.0, Gran Turismo 2, just to name a few that still look great.

 

[Warnen]

Tekken 2 or 3, Iss Pro Evo 1 or 2, Colin McRae Rally 2.0, Gran Turismo 2, just to name a few that still look great.

 

[Lysandros]

The way I understand it, having both the SH-2's share the same bus and not being able to access that bus at the same time made all the difference right? It nearly single-handedly negated much of the Saturn's power?

No, Saturn didn't have an unified/whole GPU with an embedded 3D accelerator like GTE to begin with. PS1 was designed to be able to generate 3D graphics efficiently via polygons as a central concept. Saturn simply wasn't such a system no matter the amount of SH2's thrown at the board at last minute to damage control the specs war. PS1 was inherently the more capable/powerful machine for 3D graphics.

 

[Crayon]

I'm a huge fan of saturn but this cope has been going on far too long. It's a good system. It more or less kept up while it was alive. It's reasonable to assume it would have more or less kept up as ps games got more sophisticated. But "exceptionally more powerful"? C'mon.

 

[Spiral1407]

In other words, it was basically the PS3 of that gen lol

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

If the devs knew how to code for it, it could be better. Powerslave was better on the Saturn compared to the Playstation

the ps1 version aims for 60fps, better lighting and transparency.

 

[Bojanglez]

In other words, it was basically the PS3 of that gen lol

Except it didn't have a late gen redemption and overtake it's main rival globally.

 

[ReyBrujo]

In other words, it was basically the PS3 of that gen lol

Just as Lynx was the PSP of its gen.

 

[PaintTinJr]

It is arcade perfect(as good as). What type of gaf level gamer thinks an iconic arcade game doesn't still look great? What next? SF2 turbo on SNEs looks rubbish?

 

[Alexios]

It wasn't more powerful but did have certain strengths allowing uniquely awesome games (and of course it was a 2D powerhouse which meant you got tons of both SNK & Capcom among other devs' 2D games without going for the more expensive SNK only Neo Geo and its way more expensive games but hey, Sony touted 2D is dead and folks ate it even though 3 decades later 2D still offers great fun now, never mind back then with 3D in its infancy). Regardless, loads of games used Saturn with great results, whether from small studios within Sega with little time to turn over the next game like Panzer Dragoon to Zwei, the Sega Rally, Virtua Fighters, Virtua Cops port teams, etc., small studios outside Sega like Lobotomy with Quake, Powerslave, Duke Nukem 3D, etc. and random devs with stuff like AMOK, Drift King 97, GunGriffon 1 & 2, Grandia, Soviet Strike, Bulk Slash, Resident Evil...

Also, nothing was set in stone in that stage of 3D, the successful system that was the PS due to marketing, the turned upside town press relations & 3rd party relations cemented the way it did things was the way to go, not vice versa. Saturn wasn't alien but similar to arcades many were familiar with.​

 

[Danny Dudekisser]

I like Vagrant Story a lot, but an emulated shot rendering at a way higher resolution, with correction applied to the textures, isn't exactly a fair comparison. The actual game looks more like this:

Either way, this "Saturn was more powerful" talk is nonsense.

 

[YeulEmeralda]

And still lost...

Sega lost to a newcomer that had no experience with videogames. That's some humble pie.

 

[cinnamonandgravy]

exceptionally more powerful than the PlayStation

my car can go 300mph

but it has 3 steering wheels, 4 manual transmissions, no seats, and requires a blood alcohol level above 0.4

 

[ReyBrujo]

Sega lost to a newcomer that had no experience with videogames. That's some humble pie.

One could argue they lost against the only company that had vast experience with digital media.

 

[s_mirage]

In what way was it more powerful? Raw CPU MIPS? Maybe so, but that's a moot point if that performance is impossible to realistically extract or is bottlenecked elsewhere. The Saturn's VDP1 was certainly not more powerful than the Playstation's GTE when it came to 3D.

Could it run Radiant Silvergun without cutbacks?

Probably not, but that was a game designed specifically to take advantage of the Saturn's strengths (multiple tiled 2D background planes that could be scaled and rotated). A comparison the other way would be Resident Evil 2, which used the Playstation's video decoding hardware to decompress the backgrounds. Hardware the Saturn didn't have, which led to Capcom abandoning the Saturn port as unfeasible.

More generically, in pretty much any situation where it's a fully 3D game and the Saturn can't extensively leverage its 2D hardware, the Saturn loses.

I think the thing that bothers me the most about a lot of Saturn 3D is how coarse it tends to look compared to the Playstation. To be fair though, it's not like the Saturn was completely incapable at 3D, and the Playstation had some annoying issues of its own (polygon seams, terrible warping, etc).

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

Hideki Sato was an idiot, no single man did Sega more harm than him

 

[Clear]

Proving once again, power isn't worth a shit if accessing that power is more labour intensive and time consuming,.

Also worth considering, Argonaut were pretty bad at picking platforms, they chose ST over Amiga for example!

 

[SMG]

Sega lost to a newcomer that had no experience with videogames. That's some humble pie.

Sony was making many MSX systems and was a publisher before the PlayStation released. They were in no way a newcomer.

 

[reinking]

I do not remember that being disputed even back then. I believe the talking points back then were how easy it was to develop for PlayStation and difficult for Saturn. Plus, that whole 32x fiasco leading up to the Saturn launch, and of course Stollar pushing away from Saturn too quickly blindsiding devs. At least that is how I remember it. I loved the Saturn and still have it with the 4MB extended memory cartridge. Unfortunately for Sega, the PlayStation just did things better.

 

[Wildebeest]

Proving once again, power isn't worth a shit if accessing that power is more labour intensive and time consuming,.

Also worth considering, Argonaut were pretty bad at picking platforms, they chose ST over Amiga for example!

ST was popular early on and Jez San was into 3d programming where the ST had an advantage over the Amiga. Why the ST failed faster than the Amiga is a complicated story, but the main thing at the time was a story that it had more piracy than PC or Amiga, which publishers believed, true or not.