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[_Alkaline_]

Kirby will probably do better than DK.

How's Crazy Land this time of year?

 

[TunaLover]

Well, there was first party content to keep Wii userbase (at least) aware of a healthy console, FF4, Reginleiv, Takt of Magic, Captain Rainbow, Nintendo just neglect to support its own console with a constant stream of games, what could you expect from third parties?

 

[brain_stew]

Yes, but without those decisions Nintendo would never had the smashing success enjoyed by the Wii..

I don't buy that at all.

Nintendo could have easily produced a box that would run PS3/360 titles in SD without increasing costs over the current design by much at all. That wouldn't have prevented them from having the early success that they did (far from it) and it would have ensured the third party support which could have sustained the platform's sales. Actually producing a functional online solution and taking a more proactive approach to acquiring third party support instead of the partisan approach they did wouldn't have hurt either.

Its easy to say in hindsight of course, but I've always maintained that Nintendo should have went the "360 in SD" route but the evidence of why that made sense is only finally pouring in now.

They won't make the same mistake again which is why the Wii 2 will have a modern GPU architecture even if its not particularly expensive to produce, it doesn't have to be to surpass the PS3/360 in 2011 by some distance.

 

[A Twisty Fluken]

I don't buy that at all.

Nintendo could have easily produced a box that would run PS3/360 titles in SD without increasing costs over the current design by much at all.

Would it have been as small, quiet, efficient, and BC as the system we got?

 

[brain_stew]

I like how one bad month for Nintendo basically boils down to "Nintendo is done" to most people.

For all we know, Wii Party could cause the Wii to get back to ridiculous numbers again. It's very difficult to come right out and say "OMG WII IS DEAD" from 1 bad month of sales.
s.

I'm not going off "one bad month" of sales, though, far from it. I'm basing this on multiple years of sustained declines and the increasing sales of their competitors solutions, with the Wii's early momentum, that situation should have never been allow to arise but its happened and nothings shifting it at this point. This industry is all about momentum and nothing but new hardware is going to get that back for Nintendo at this point. Wii's sales are only going to continue on a downward trend (minor bumps notwithstanding) now third parties have completely bailed and Nintendo's software focus has moved to the 3DS (and probably the Wii 2).

 

[szaromir]

So Nintendo have managed to go from running away with the lead every month to dead last? The Wii's fall has been almost as dramatic as its rise, and surely the greatest ever precedent of how to kill momentum for a platform. A lot of it has to do with lack of decent third party support but the lack of third party support is a direct consequence of Nintendo's decisions, so they're not getting off the hook that easily.

The evidence of the need to launch Wii 2 and soon just continues to build. Holidays 2011, nailed on.

If the slowing sales this year came to Nintendo by surprise, there's no way we'll see a new console from them in 2011. Launching a console is much more complex from other consumer electronics, not only you have to prepare hardware, but you should also have some decent lineup of games and some vision for the platform for 5+ years, whereas your average CE device has a maximum shelf life of 2 years before it's phased out. It's not something that they can rush to the market.

 

[brain_stew]

Would it have been as small, quiet, efficient, and BC as the system we got?

It would have been all the bolded, not quite to the degree that the Wii was admittedly, but it would have still looked like the messiah in them departments compared to the PS3 and 360. BC would have had to be ditched of course but its not as if the GCN's library was particularly strong and worth keeping anyway. Its not what sold the Wii.

 

[kinggroin]

I don't buy that at all.

Nintendo could have easily produced a box that would run PS3/360 titles in SD without increasing costs over the current design by much at all. That wouldn't have prevented them from having the early success that they did (far from it) and it would have ensured the third party support which could have sustained the platform's sales. Actually producing a functional online solution and taking a more proactive approach to acquiring third party support instead of the partisan approach they did wouldn't have hurt either.

Its easy to say in hindsight of course, but I've always maintained that Nintendo should have went the "360 in SD" route but the evidence of why that made sense is only finally pouring in now.

They won't make the same mistake again which is why the Wii 2 will have a modern GPU architecture even if its not particularly expensive to produce, it doesn't have to be to surpass the PS3/360 in 2011 by some distance.

When you say 360 in sd you don't mean simply more power but rather more conventional architecture AND a bit more power. Only reason I bring this up is because having grunt on par or better in some cases than its competitors did nothing for the gc and nintendo last gen. A healthy development environment and good 3rd party relations are key for them.

 

[brain_stew]

If the slowing sales this year came to Nintendo by surprise.

They haven't. The Wii has been declining in sales for multiple years now and they would have made preliminary plans for a successor to the Wii, 5 years after launch long before them. The downturn in sales will have only accelerated those plans.

 

[FoneBone]

The evidence of the need to launch Wii 2 and soon just continues to build. Holidays 2011, nailed on.

Do you really think this is at all realistic at this point? I'm not sure they can possibly get software ready, and I'd think that there'd have been more solid rumblings by now.

 

[Pimpbaa]

So will we finally be able to just walk into a store a pick up a Wii this xmas?

 

[brain_stew]

When you say 360 in sd you don't mean simply more power but rather more conventional architecture AND a bit more power. Only reason I bring this up is because having grunt on par or better in some cases than its competitors did nothing for the gc and nintendo last gen. A healthy development environment and good 3rd party relations are key for them.

Basically, so long as the system could run cheap downports from PS3/360 titles, running on the same game engines and using the same shader code (just ran at lower precision) then that would have been enough. The Wii didn't allow that which is really what killed third party development on the platform, since developers had to effectively create brand new titles from the ground up if they wanted decent results.

Something like a mobility X1300 for the GPU, just make sure it is a DX9 level part.
128MB/256MB GDDR3 memory
2x~2ghz PPC CPUs, can probably get away with something even lower end.

Something like that, the fact that developers would have to target a resolution 4x smaller would make up for a lot of the performance deficiencies. Basically design 2006's equivalent of the GCN, don't just OC a GCN, add some more RAM and a couple tweaks then call it a day.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

So amazing.

 

[Rhindle]

Do you really think this is at all realistic at this point? I'm not sure they can possibly get software ready, and I'd think that there'd have been more solid rumblings by now.

A 2011 launch for any console hardware is completely out of the question at this point. Nintendo needs another peripheral for 2011.

I doubt a WiiHD console would sell to begin. Nintendo needs a whole new shtick for their next console.

 

[Dai101]

So will we finally be able to just walk into a store a pick up a Wii this xmas?

Even 2 if you want to

 

[brain_stew]

Do you really think this is at all realistic at this point? I'm not sure they can possibly get software ready, and I'd think that there'd have been more solid rumblings by now.

Absolutely, Q2 2012 at the latest. They need to stop the PS3's (and Move's) momentum and release a console while the Wii brand isn't devalued too much. The longer they leave it the harder it will be to have a successful launch.

 

[plagiarize]

Basically, so long as the system could run cheap downports from PS3/360 titles, running on the same game engines and using the same shader code (just ran at lower precision) then that would have been enough. The Wii didn't allow that which is really what killed third party development on the platform, since developers had to effectively create brand new titles from the ground up if they wanted decent results.

Something like a mobility X1300 for the GPU
128MB/256MB GDDR3 memory
2x2ghz PPC CPUs

Something like that, the fact that developers would have to target a resolution 4x smaller would make up for a lot of the performance deficiencies. Basically design 2006's equivalent of the GCN, don't just OC a GCN, add some more RAM and a couple tweaks then call it a day.

i think they wanted to avoid downports and using they GCN architecture kind of solved that problem. plus a lot of 3rd parties already had engines or middleware experience with the GCN even if, you know, those engines were shite and hadn't been touched in ages.

i think the wii having a very different library to the other systems helped it early on. it wasn't just playing the same games with lesser graphics and waggle, it was doing it's own thing completely. it wasn't 'well i can get that game just without waggle' which is what third party support probably would have been.

nintendo are definately to blame with the third party support issue though, and i hope the 3DS's direction is one they're planning on following for the wii 2. something with enough punch and lots of core appeal in it's library.

long run maybe that would have been better, but i do think its issues now are as much about the first party situation as they are the third party situation.

 

[Cosmonaut X]

They haven't. The Wii has been declining in sales for multiple years now and they would have made preliminary plans for a successor to the Wii, 5 years after launch long before them. The downturn in sales will have only accelerated those plans.

Indeed. Based on what little we know about Nintendo's internal hardware development process, it seems likely that a small team was working on a selection of proposals for Wii's successor as soon as the system launched, and I can only imagine that the downturn in Japan in early 2009 will have accelerated that process.

As for launch software, just watch what their internal teams are doing. There has been a lot of activity from subsidiaries and partners (Wii Party was ndCube, Other M largely Team Ninja, DKCR is Retro etc. etc.) but it appears that their main internal teams are running quiet. Some will no doubt be involved in 3DS development, but I think there are still likely to be some in a position to work on Wii2 launch software.

 

[donny2112]

total software sales for fiscal year 2009 was 115.6 million units for the PS3 and 103.1 million units for the 360, judging from their financial reports.

Where, exactly, in Microsoft's financial report did they list software shipments?

 

[balladofwindfishes]

I'm not going off "one bad month" of sales, though, far from it. I'm basing this on multiple years of sustained declines and the increasing sales of their competitors solutions, with the Wii's early momentum, that situation should have never been allow to arise but its happened and nothings shifting it at this point. This industry is all about momentum and nothing but new hardware is going to get that back for Nintendo at this point. Wii's sales are only going to continue on a downward trend (minor bumps notwithstanding) now third parties have completely bailed and Nintendo's software focus has moved to the 3DS (and probably the Wii 2).

But third parties haven't bailed on the Wii

Only the third parties you want have bailed on the Wii, and that's not terribly accurate either considering some of the efforts that have come this year and will come before the holidays

The Wii also seems to have the most powerful holiday release schedule for games, getting the major release of the other two systems (CoD), plus it's own blend of Goldeneye, Epic Mickey and Donkey Kong. Plus Kirby and Metroid should continue pushing some numbers, on top of Nintendo's growing list of evergreens. There's also the huge Wii Party bump that may happen, depending on how that's received.

Your theories on what Nintendo should have done probably would have put them out of business.

 

[Guevara]

Nintendo's hardware side must be freed up to work on the Wii+ as the 3DS should have been finished months ago. Software side probably all is working on 3DS software (besides the limited Wii games we know about), but after that...?

 

[Guy Legend]

ter at this point? New consoles are probably going to start dropping pretty soon here. At this point it's time to give the PS3 its eulogy as the last place system, and talk about how Sony can get back in the lead with the PS4.

PS3 is going to finish in last place in North America. But it's likely that it outlasts the Wii if the Wii's sales descent continues. PS3's tech allows it be relevant for a very long time.

Worldwide however, Sony has a very real chance at catching Microsoft. They can still finish 2nd overall.

 

[brain_stew]

But third parties haven't bailed on the Wii

Only the third parties you want have bailed on the Wii, and that's not terribly accurate either considering some of the efforts that have come this year and will come before the holidays

They really have, there's a few titles still left that could drive sales like Sonic, Mickey and Goldeneye but apart from that its almost entirely shovelware. There's been a significant downturn in the amount of worthwile third party support announced in the last year, no two ways around it.

 

[Eric Hall]

Those Guitar Hero numbers are absurd :lol That doesn't look good for Rock Band 3 though

 

[balladofwindfishes]

They really have, there's a few titles still left that could drive sales like Sonic, Mickey and Goldeneye but apart from that its almost entirely shovelware. There's been a significant downturn in the amount of worthwile third party support announced in the last year, no two ways around it.

But shovelware still gets sales. It's like your pushing a pile of games off to the side and saying their sales don't count.

Certainly they don't do crazy numbers, but we've seen plenty of shovelware or borderline shovelware games get lots of attention. Stuff like Carnival Games, which sells fantastic.

 

[Branduil]

Nintendo needs to release the Wii successor as soon as they can. It doesn't look like 2011 is realistic any longer, but they should try to release it in 2012 as soon as possible.

 

[Cosmonaut X]

Nintendo's hardware side must be freed up to work on the Wii+ as the 3DS should have been finished months ago. Software side probably all is working on 3DS software (besides the limited Wii games we know about), but after that...?

Well, I'm wondering if part of the reason Konno ran 3DS development was so that there were two hardware-development teams running in parallel, one on the 3DS and one on the Wii successor. However, I'd have to bow to the knowledge of someone like Shikimaru Ninja on this one.

But shovelware still gets sales. It's like your pushing a pile of games off to the side and saying their sales don't count.

Certainly they don't do crazy numbers, but we've seen plenty of shovelware or borderline shovelware games get lots of attention. Stuff like Carnival Games, which sells fantastic.

...and how does the Wii ending up at this point at its lifespan as the home of shovelware that sells well help Nintendo, higher-profile third parties or the chances of landing decent support for the next console?

 

[Canova]

Good riddance Wii,

can't wait for all these motion controllers to fucking die already

 

[Celine]

I don't buy that at all.

Nintendo could have easily produced a box that would run PS3/360 titles in SD without increasing costs over the current design by much at all. That wouldn't have prevented them from having the early success that they did (far from it) and it would have ensured the third party support which could have sustained the platform's sales. Actually producing a functional online solution and taking a more proactive approach to acquiring third party support instead of the partisan approach they did wouldn't have hurt either.

It would have reduce the profit margin for sure and increased R&D for a system whose selling point wasn't related to graphics at all.
Also Nintendo reused the know how they built during the GC era with the Wii.

Wii isn't a system built for third-parties, it wouldn't make sense for a company seen by publishers as an also run and that want to market an untested concept to court outside companies.

Its easy to say in hindsight of course, but I've always maintained that Nintendo should have went the "360 in SD" route but the evidence of why that made sense is only finally pouring in now.

That solution would have granted ports from Xbox 360 and PS3, still those versions would be considered gimped.
Not that would be a problem because as I said it wasn't graphics that propelled Wii sales.

They won't make the same mistake again which is why the Wii 2 will have a modern GPU architecture even if its not particularly expensive to produce, it doesn't have to be to surpass the PS3/360 in 2011 by some distance.

Yes, the Wii successor will have a noticeable jump in graphic fidelity for the reason you cited ( and the fact that they start so low in the comparation ).
I just hope it isn't the only ( or main ) factor to upgrade.

Also Nintendo will come next gen in a much stronger position than when they entered the current gen after the disappointing GC era.

 

[AgentOtaku]

Dead Rising 2!!!!!!

So happy!

Anyone have an idea how many it sold?

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Good riddance Wii,

can't wait for all these motion controllers to fucking die already

Why?

I mean, it's growing pains of the industry. What is Nintendo had said that they can't wait for home consoles to die already and kept making toys and arcade games?

After all, the entire home console business was just a "fad" and everyone was jumping in on it with their half-ass attempts to overthrow Atari. It's essentially the same thing.

...and how does the Wii ending up at this point at its lifespan as the home of shovelware that sells well help Nintendo, higher-profile third parties or the chances of landing decent support for the next console?

I don't know, I wasn't arguing about that.

 

[PSGames]

Dead Rising 2!!!!!!

So happy!

Anyone have an idea how many it sold?

Around 400 - 500k it looks like for all 3 versions. Wish it had sold more actually.

 

[Shadowlink]

Awesome to see Metroid and BBS in the top 10!

 

[SapientWolf]

Good riddance Wii,

can't wait for all these motion controllers to fucking die already

The HD consoles might as well keep them if they continue to host games originally designed around mouse controls.

 

[Amir0x]

But third parties haven't bailed on the Wii

Only the third parties you want have bailed on the Wii, and that's not terribly accurate either considering some of the efforts that have come this year and will come before the holidays

The Wii also seems to have the most powerful holiday release schedule for games, getting the major release of the other two systems (CoD), plus it's own blend of Goldeneye, Epic Mickey and Donkey Kong. Plus Kirby and Metroid should continue pushing some numbers, on top of Nintendo's growing list of evergreens. There's also the huge Wii Party bump that may happen, depending on how that's received.

Your theories on what Nintendo should have done probably would have put them out of business.

It gets Donkey Kong? That counts as third party? It gets Kirby and Metroid, that counts as third party too now? Wii Party... also not third party.

It has a comically inferior port of the Call of Duty game everyone will be buying on the HD platforms and then, in your estimation, Goldeneye lol) and Epic Mickey thumbsup).

The idea that third parties haven't abandoned Nintendo with the big support is something you'd truly have to be blind to believe. Now, 3DS is coming and that's where the third parties are going to support. Wii has no chance now to recover in that regard.

And then...

But shovelware still gets sales. It's like your pushing a pile of games off to the side and saying their sales don't count.

Certainly they don't do crazy numbers, but we've seen plenty of shovelware or borderline shovelware games get lots of attention.

...the new Nintendo Wii motto.

"HEY, WE STILL GET SHOVELWARE."

:lol :lol

 

[balladofwindfishes]

It gets Donkey Kong? That counts as third party? It gets Kirby and Metroid, that counts as third party too now? Wii Party... also not third party.

It has a comically inferior port of the Call of Duty game everyone will be buying on the HD platforms and then, in your estimation, Goldeneye lol) and Epic Mickey thumbsup).

The idea that third parties haven't abandoned Nintendo with the big support is something you'd truly have to be blind to believe. Now, 3DS is coming and that's where the third parties are going to support. Wii has no chance now to recover in that regard.

And then...



...the new Nintendo Wii motto.

"HEY, WE STILL GET SHOVELWARE."

:lol :lol

You failed to notice it was a new paragraph, and further failed to read the first sentence of said paragraph. I was discussing the Wii's holiday line up, and not merely exclusive to third parties.

CoD Wii games sell well. They don't pull 360 or PS3 numbers, but they do sell well as individual games.


Believe it or not, there is a market in shovelware. If there wasn't people wouldn't be considering the iPhone a gaming platform (which some do)

 

[Boney]

PSP is stil MIA right? Great showing on the PS3, I wonder how long can both the HD consoles last without a succesor.. Holiday 2013?

 

[AmericanNinja]

just let it go guys. NPD results are no more.

 

[Amir0x]

You failed to notice it was a new paragraph, and further failed to read the first sentence of said paragraph. I was discussing the Wii's holiday line up, and not merely exclusive to third parties.

CoD Wii games sell well. They don't pull 360 or PS3 numbers, but they do sell well as individual games.

No, I read it. You tried to argue that the Wii had good third party support by propping up the embarrassingly low third party support with Nintendo's first party stable of games. Which, by the way, is exactly beside the point. You only brought it up because you have no point.

Believe it or not, there is a market in shovelware. If there wasn't people wouldn't be considering the iPhone a gaming platform (which some do)

Some shovelware sells - but if you're trying to argue that Wii's third party support isn't dismal by saying it has shovelware, surprise, people are going to laugh at you! Shovelware != good third party support. Hell, it doesn't even equal mediocre third party support.

 

[Anerythristic]

I am not a Wii hater in the least but I have to ask. Is it possible that kids that got the Wii during its boom when the were 8 - 11 years old are trying out the other systems a few years later?

I remember I went from Super Nintendo to Playstation and I remembere why I asked for a Playstation.

 

[Dai101]

just let it go guys. NPD results are no more.

 

[onipex]

I don't think Wii Party will be a system seller. I can't remember Mario Party ever being a system seller. Plus Nintendo actually released Kirby to be very casual friendly since you can't die ( the challenge comes in completing the game 100%). DKC is Mario to a lesser degree if it still holds the same impact it did on SNES and N64.

I actually think the Mickey game could have been a system pusher for the holiday but the release date for the game is no good for that. Still you have the MJ dancing game and Just Dance 2 and at least one of them should be a big hit this holiday.

Is Nintendo releasing the 25th anniversary Mario in the states before the holiday?


MS is stilling ridding high off their remodel and Sony has come off theirs. Should be an interesting none NPD data holiday.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

No, I read it. You tried to argue that the Wii had good third party support by propping up the embarrassingly low third party support with Nintendo's first party stable of games. Which, by the way, is exactly beside the point. You only brought it up because you have no point.

The Wii also seems to have the most powerful holiday release schedule for games

Nowhere did I mention third parties specifically in regard to the Wii's holiday release schedule...

I was making a different point in the same post.

 

[Amir0x]

I am not a Wii hater in the least but I have to ask. Is it possible that kids that got the Wii during its boom when the were 8 - 11 years old are trying out the other systems a few years later?

I remember I went from Super Nintendo to Playstation and I remembere why I asked for a Playstation.

I doubt it. And far be it from me to call it a fad - that's for Pokemon - but anecdotally, with my family, they played Wii Sports for a day during the launch and then like one or two times after that throughout the months and then never picked it up again. They're not game enthusiasts. They didn't play it because they wanted to be gamers, they played it because it was a novelty... a quick diversion before they returned to what they actually like.

It's very rare you can turn a non-gamer/game hater - someone who has ALWAYS hated games - into someone who suddenly likes them. That's simply the net result. You need a firmer foundation to continue the strength, you cannot only rely on non-gamers for your big titles.

Nowhere did I mention third parties specifically in regard to the Wii's holiday release schedule..

"You only brought it up because you have no point."

Alt: Your argument about third parties was completely vapid and so you tried to change the subject. Nobody cared except to call you on it.

 

[BishopLamont]

I am not a Wii hater in the least but I have to ask. Is it possible that kids that got the Wii during its boom when the were 8 - 11 years old are trying out the other systems a few years later?

I remember I went from Super Nintendo to Playstation and I remembere why I asked for a Playstation.

The PAL Charts is thattaway buddy.

 

[Zoe]

I am not a Wii hater in the least but I have to ask. Is it possible that kids that got the Wii during its boom when the were 8 - 11 years old are trying out the other systems a few years later?

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=407356

 

[Owzers]

But shovelware still gets sales. It's like your pushing a pile of games off to the side and saying their sales don't count.

Certainly they don't do crazy numbers, but we've seen plenty of shovelware or borderline shovelware games get lots of attention. Stuff like Carnival Games, which sells fantastic.

Shovelware: We win you over by our numbers, smothering you to death with mediocrity.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

There's a fundamental difference between third party support and third party sales. You can't make the blanket statement that the Wii has poor third party sales, yet neglect to include shovelware in the mix.

That's what I was arguing in regards to shovelware on the Wii. I was not trying to pioneer shovelware as any sort of pro for the Wii, I was merely correcting a common theory that Wii's third party sales are low, when they are not.

 

[onipex]

There's a fundamental difference between third party support and third party sales. You can't make the blanket statement that the Wii has poor third party sales, yet neglect to include shovelware in the mix.

That's what I was arguing in regards to shovelware on the Wii. I was not trying to pioneer shovelware as any sort of pro for the Wii, I was merely correcting a common theory that Wii's third party sales are low, when they are not.

Meh, even when the Wii was selling the most software it was all Nintendo titles.

 

[donny2112]

Several posts above referred to their annual reports for 2009, which you can look at.

Great. Wonderful. I've looked at Microsoft's financials. No mention of software shipments. Can you point me explicitly to where in Microsoft's financials they list software shipments?