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The Last of Us Online "was great", former PlayStation exec says, but Naughty Dog couldn't make it alongside new IP
- Thread starter Thick Thighs Save Lives
- Start date
Kings Field
Member
The MP for the first game was amazing.
Saber
Member
Don't buy this.
Bungie probably said that their game sucks and they need more than "great" to actually have people playing it. Something like having strong appeal.
Also, it was great for who? For internal soycucks or for the gamers? Because we all know what happens when you make game for devs, Concord sure must have being great in the eyes of devs.
Bungie probably said that their game sucks and they need more than "great" to actually have people playing it. Something like having strong appeal.
Also, it was great for who? For internal soycucks or for the gamers? Because we all know what happens when you make game for devs, Concord sure must have being great in the eyes of devs.
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FoxMcChief
Gold Member
Shame. I think the wrong game might have been axed.
BlackTron
Member
They're currently planning to stretch TLOU2 to two show seasons, and making Intergalactic.
Current indicators for 3 are kinda poor. Sounds like a PS6 game if it exists. Going through both a gen change and a genre change, "in some form" is right...
darthkarki
Member
Yeah, I think you nailed it. I think this is a victim of the tendency for everything to go bigger. Single player games used to have relatively modest multiplayer modes included to add value, but as time went on so many multiplayer games/modes got so big and impressive by themselves that everyone feels they have to "step it up" to compete. Leading to the new Factions mode growing too big to be finished in time to be included in TLOU2, so it became its own game.
But then you have a problem: do you charge for it, or is it free-to-play? Either choice becomes very hard:
- You could follow the traditional model of building a finished product and put out a paid-for game, but who buys a multiplayer game by itself, without a single player mode, and when there are free alternatives? Especially if the idea is it's a finished product that won't continue to grow and evolve, which people expect now.
- You could go free-to-play, but since you don't have the up-front cost to recoup expenses, you have to try to monetize by smaller amounts over a longer period of time, which means you have to support the game over a longer period of time - meaning it's now a live service.
Of course I still feel like, with all of the effort and work put into it already, isn't it better to whip that into something to release? Even just a free multiplayer mode addon to TLOU2? But I guess that's the sunk cost fallacy. The first 90% of a project takes 90% of the time and effort, and the last 10% takes the other 90% of the time and effort - without doing some big flashy live service thing, they probably won't make back whatever it cost to push it to some kind of a finished state, so they'll lose less to just drop it. Sad.
Idleyes
Gold Member
I think they should just release what they've already built as a "5 or 6 year anniversary fan appreciation" DLC for TLOU2 and let player engagement dictate future Factions DLC. Go the paid DLC route, low risk, high potential. It makes sense to recover some of the development costs.
Perrott
Member
Well, they ended up delivering on their 10 years Destiny storyline (unlike several other studios that made the same promise over the years), so I'd say that makes them as knowledgeable about live-services as the Final Fantasy XIV team.Lmaooool Bungie
As if they know what the fuck they are doing over there
panda-zebra
Member
Shu's got no reason to make shit up just because, but sure, don the tinfoil apparel and feel free to believe in your own version of the truth.
lol. If Helldivers 2 proves anything it's that you can make a game fun for a lot of people over 20 hours, then if you have a shit live service and no real idea how to make your game worth playing over the long term,it's only those who stick it out to make their own fun together in the sandbox that keep at it and continue to enjoy it. Never fell off a game as hard in my life.
Helldivers 2 is a fun £40 one and done game while there's stuff to unlock in the ship, getting all the stratagems etc.. It's a fucking dogturd of a live service after that grinding out mediocre crap and side-grades.
viveks86
Member
Am I the only one that gets hyped for Intergalactic even more when someone posts this shot or a GIF version of it? Looks so good!Shame. I think the wrong game might have been axed.
...
Yeah I'm probably alone in here
FoxMcChief
Gold Member
Am I the only one that gets hyped for Intergalactic even more when someone posts this shot or a GIF version of it? Looks so good!
...
Yeah I'm probably alone in here
EverydayBeast
ChatGPT 0.001
Uncharted 2/3/4 MP was beautiful no doubt and years later Sony let go of multiplayer shooters all together (resistance, Warhawk, mgo, Killzone, socom, uncharted etc.) what’s the deal now with games only focusing on one aspect of a game? You need a campaign and multiplayer regardless if it’s good or not let the masses decide.
Felessan
Member
The thing Bungie probably told them that they need 1000-2000 people to work full-time to properly maintain it, that means project will become the sole focus of studio for quite some time. And it was a bummer for ND who though of it as just a little bigger MP initially.
A proper GaaS requires massive dedication of resources (CoD is 3000 people, Mihoyo is about 2000 people per game, Riot is 4000 for 2 games etc). It's not a thing you can just pass to some small support studio to do.
The scale of real gaas is different though
It will probably come as the online component of part 3. And will be supported GaaS-lite. Micro transaction and all but not fully commit to free-to-play business scheme.
TheThreadsThatBindUs
Member
Helldivers 2, Astroneer, No Man's Sky, Warframe, Roblox, Fornite, COD: Warzone, GTAV: Online, Genshin Impact, The First Descendent and a bunch of others prove you demonstrably incorrect on this.
You might not like them personally, but they're the most popular games right now, and for good reason.
indigoSociety
Member
Till this day i think this wouldve been PS’s first major GAAS success if it was free to play
Negotiator
Member
Not true.
ND sold plenty of MTX in the PS3 era (TLOU1 MP also had MTX):
It's best to start a MP as a small project and let it grow organically if it becomes successful... that's what happened to UC3 MP and TLOU1 MP.
Negotiator
Member
I certainly didn't want Factions - Battle Royale edition (they were preparing a massive open-world MP game with tons of grind).
I prefer linear MP experiences. Call it "tacked on MP" (Uncharted 2-3, TLOU1), I don't care.
Small and beautiful is the best and it doesn't cost a lot of money.
The problem now is that if Intergalactic fails commercially for whatever reason (the trailer had tons of dislikes on YouTube, this has never happened with a ND game before), then I'm afraid heads will have to roll at ND HQ.
A successful MP GaaS means ND could easily fund 5-10 AAA SP games (by growing their teams organically). Most people (including gamers) are short-term thinkers, so they'll never agree with this.
I'm afraid they left money on the table, but we'll never find out.
PS's first major F2P/GaaS-lite success was this underrated gem on a "failed" console:
UNCHARTED 3 Multiplayer Goes Free-to-Play Today
After a few months of dropping hints our secret is ready to be made public. We are extremely fortunate to have some of the most devoted and amazing fans in gaming and we wanted to introduce those fans, and the world of UNCHARTED 3 multiplayer, to as many people as possible. We also wanted...
blog.playstation.com
Heimdall_Xtreme
Hermen Hulst Fanclub's #1 Member
I wouldn't buy it honestly.
lh032
I cry about Xbox and hate PlayStation.
not enough . Sony wants COD , fortnite or rivals kind of profit.
Negotiator
Member
I also want Scarlett Johansson, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't settle with a normal girl.
lh032
I cry about Xbox and hate PlayStation.
logic does not apply to corporation.
indigoSociety
Member
First commerical success i shouldve said. I enjoyed UC3 multiplayer too. TLOU1 multiplayer was awesome as well. But a refined bigger better f2p version of it wouldve killed commercially imho. Factions too is a great name not for nothing i can see that catching onI certainly didn't want Factions - Battle Royale edition (they were preparing a massive open-world MP game with tons of grind).
I prefer linear MP experiences. Call it "tacked on MP" (Uncharted 2-3, TLOU1), I don't care.
Small and beautiful is the best and it doesn't cost a lot of money.
The problem now is that if Intergalactic fails commercially for whatever reason (the trailer had tons of dislikes on YouTube, this has never happened with a ND game before), then I'm afraid heads will have to roll at ND HQ.
A successful MP GaaS means ND could easily fund 5-10 AAA SP games (by growing their teams organically). Most people (including gamers) are short-term thinkers, so they'll never agree with this.
I'm afraid they left money on the table, but we'll never find out.
PS's first major F2P/GaaS-lite success was this underrated gem on a "failed" console:
It would have been way more successful on PS4/5...UNCHARTED 3 Multiplayer Goes Free-to-Play Today
After a few months of dropping hints our secret is ready to be made public. We are extremely fortunate to have some of the most devoted and amazing fans in gaming and we wanted to introduce those fans, and the world of UNCHARTED 3 multiplayer, to as many people as possible. We also wanted...
Lunarorbit
Member
Sony has so many support studios. Yes naughty dog could have released this and then had another team help it along.
This game wasn't going to be like anything Rockstar produces. There was no environmental damage in the 1st factions. You had around 5 maps based on already existing assets in game.
Neil got scared cause he doesn't understand mp apparently even though uncharted and tlou had multiplayer modes. Bungies fucked up management team gave horrible advice.
Yep, they focused on a singleplayer new IP and axed the GaaS, everybody should be happy about that judging by all the past talking points but I'm sure there's something to be angry about with that move. There always is.
dragonyeuw
Member
It's interesting that Intergalactic was prioritized over having a Factions game running concurrently with TLOU show, seems like a pretty obvious way to cross-promote between live action and game mediums ( which Sony has been doing with some of their other IP).
Business
Member
Just do factions again man, some maps based on part 2, remake some original maps and if possible add a couple of mechanics from part 2 like crawling. Include it with part 2 or sell it stand alone I don’t mind, add microtransactions, make money and sell online subs. Sonds pretty simple unless you go crazy and think you have to reinvent the wheel while wasting tens of millions of dollars.
GermanZepp
Member
Are you telling me that they couldn't figure it out before investing resources and canceling it? 
I like shu but I don't buy it.
I like shu but I don't buy it.
GermanZepp
Member
Are you not tired of being wrong?
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
Are you telling me that they couldn't figure it out before investing resources and canceling it?
Its not that simple. They probably underestimated manpower requirements to maintain the service long-term and couldn't make it fit within budgets without leaving themselves short on capacity for their next major project.
The thing I see over and over again these discussions is the complete lack of consideration for money. ND will not have unlimited funds to work with! They'll have annual and project budgets that they need to stay within. If the spend exceeds that amount they can request more from senior management at SCEA, but if they too are at their allocations limit... what then ? If the CFO says they can't have the additional cash because that's going to impact group forecasts and share-holder dividends they get to pound sand.
What Yoshida mentions about everyone over-staffing due to the COVID bubble is a thing that should not be overlooked - its going to have profound effects top to bottom when you have massive shifts like that in market conditions and hence income expectations.
The thing about GaaS is its a long-term commitment, if forecasts shift to say that its likely to generate smaller margins than initially thought then plans going forwards will change. And that can mean less money and less manpower...
RafterXL
Member
I know reading comprehension is hard, but that facts in this article just prove the "haters" right.
It literally spells is out right in that quote. Sony pushed an GaaS initiative and developers realized if they wanted a game approved they needed to hop on board. So, yeah, not "forced" but highly coerced. Bosses always see things as "mutual" when they rig the game and then employees capitulate.
"I didn't make anyone do anything, I just told them I wouldn't approve what they were doing unless it was what I wanted"
GTFO.
Bumblebeetuna
Member
The worst thing about the GaaS push is that traditional MP games where you buy it and that’s it are pretty much dead. Now everything has to have skins and weapons and maps and battle passes to make money at all times or it’s not worth the investment. Even the first Factions was loaded with cosmetic DLC and some (pay to win) weapon DLC, but you could buy the game and be done. I wonder what they were planning that would have required such a dedicated investment.
They could have remade the first game, added cosmetic shit and some new maps and toned down some of the weapons and it would have been great, would have instantly been one of the best MP shooters on the market. Could have even added seasons and a battle pass, that doesn’t require a huge workload investment.
They could have remade the first game, added cosmetic shit and some new maps and toned down some of the weapons and it would have been great, would have instantly been one of the best MP shooters on the market. Could have even added seasons and a battle pass, that doesn’t require a huge workload investment.
Represent.
Represent(ative) of bad opinions
Anyone upset that they decided to prioritize a brand new single player action adventure IP instead of becoming yet another fucking GAAS Trash factory studio is exactly why the industry is a complete joke today.
“Why didn’t they prioritize Gaas trash?”
Seriously
“Why didn’t they prioritize Gaas trash?”
Seriously
Men_in_Boxes
Snake Oil Salesman
We knew literally nothing about it.
Fbh
Member
Seems like the game was a victim of poor planning and Sony spreading themselves too thin in their approach to GAAS.
If they had realized from the beginning what it would take and had decided to focus on fewer higher quality products instead of throwing everything at the wall and seeing what sticks they could have easily set up a new studio or new ND team to support the game instead of wasting all that money and stuff like Concord and Fairgame$.
I think it's because everyone is chasing the Fortnite money, and that requieres a level of support most studios can't provide if they are also developing a fully fledged AAA story mode (not to mention it makes it hard to make the game F2P or at least lower priced).
If they had realized from the beginning what it would take and had decided to focus on fewer higher quality products instead of throwing everything at the wall and seeing what sticks they could have easily set up a new studio or new ND team to support the game instead of wasting all that money and stuff like Concord and Fairgame$.
Uncharted 2/3/4 MP was beautiful no doubt and years later Sony let go of multiplayer shooters all together (resistance, Warhawk, mgo, Killzone, socom, uncharted etc.) what’s the deal now with games only focusing on one aspect of a game? You need a campaign and multiplayer regardless if it’s good or not let the masses decide.
I think it's because everyone is chasing the Fortnite money, and that requieres a level of support most studios can't provide if they are also developing a fully fledged AAA story mode (not to mention it makes it hard to make the game F2P or at least lower priced).
Why are we acting as if this is the first project that has been cancelled at PlayStation?Are you telling me that they couldn't figure it out before investing resources and canceling it?
London Studios New IP?
Bend GaaS?
Bluepoint GaaS?
Prophecy by Sucker Punch?
Santa Monica's Sci-Fi game that was cancelled after 4 years of development before they released GOW (2018)?
Hell Ubisoft, EA, Tencent, and other big publishers are cancelling games left-and-right nowadays that have been deep in development. Some were near release and were still cancelled. Sega's Hyena ring a bell?
They were a single-player studio trying to boot up a GaaS. All of their resources would've gone towards that, and you would've gotten nothing but more Last of Us over the course of 4-5 years. It's also Naughty Dog shooting themselves in the foot again with ambition. Since Uncharted 4, every project has been more ambitious than the last, and we've seen the effects it has on their development pipeline. Lost Legacy is turning into a standalone game and pushing back the development of TLOU2. TLOU2's MP was scrapped initially due to the game's scope growing in size. If it wasn't for the crunch, TLOU2 would've been a 2021 release.
Felessan
Member
It would, but at the same time it would mean the death of the studio we know
Same as Bungie
Switch to GaaS means that whole studio transits to make live service game, even balloon 3-4 times just keep it running. In 2-4 years it will transform completely, leaving no ground for SP games. 2k people for running live service game is no joke, it leaves a lot of stress on devs and management, optimizing company structure for gaas game.
Yes, and it's normal. The difference in scope just too big.Are you telling me that they couldn't figure it out before investing resources and canceling it?
Like 90% of this forum has no clue about this and you want devs to fare better?
"Lot of work" - and people thinks it's x2... and not x20.... where eyes open and some backtracking takes place
Men_in_Boxes
Snake Oil Salesman
Are you still waiting for Epic Games to release their 5 - 10 AAA SP games after Fortnite?
Negotiator
Member
Newsflash: Epic Games has funded a lot more than 5-10 AAA SP games (Epic Games Store exclusives).
Not to mention EGS freebies since 2018...
Do you think it's a "charity" that funds all these goodies?
I'm pretty sure Fortnite MTX have also funded lots of Sony AAA SP projects since the PS4 era (Fortnite was released in 2017).
Sony needs MTX money (30% royalties from 3rd parties) to fund expensive AAA SP projects, that's why they tried block MS from making CoD exclusive to XBOX.
It's myopic to claim otherwise.
rabbity-thing
Member
There are few things I am less excited about than a new GAAS game. Coupled with the fact that Intergalactic looks phenomenal, and I'm gonna respectfully disagree. Need I remind you, that the trailer needle-dropped Pet Shop Boys. For that alone, it has my attention.Shame. I think the wrong game might have been axed.
Men_in_Boxes
Snake Oil Salesman
Oh 3rd party games, sure.
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Mibu no ookami
Demoted Member® Pro™
It's not about funding, it's about resources. You say grow organically, but that's just the thing, it's difficult to grow to support a successful live service game that could in theory fund 5-10 AAA SP games and have the resources to make those single player games organically. The faster you grow and more people you bring in, the more problems you start having.
People complain about remasters but they give people the opportunity to gain management experience and experience across an entire project. That's how you grow organically/quickly. Live Service takes over your entire operation and that's why he said Epic hasn't done any single player games since Fortnite because they don't have the resources to do so. Outsourcing contracts by getting exclusives is not the same.
That's also what Bungie told Naughty Dog. Bungie hasn't made a single player game either because they don't have the resources to do so while focusing on Destiny.
You could triple the size of your studio to try and do both, but what happens when your live service game wanes in popularity or the single player game you make isn't successful? That's kind of why we're seeing all these layoffs in the first place; overgrowth.