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[Negotiator]

Oh 3rd party games, sure.

Epic Games is not a platform holder.

PC as a platform is not owned by anyone (including Valve). It's like asking nVidia to make "1st" party games. It doesn't make any sense.

1st party games don't exist on PC. It's not a closed platform, so it doesn't make any sense to judge it by console standards.

It's like comparing Capitalism/Free Market to Socialism/Planned Economy. Apples to oranges.

It's not about funding, it's about resources. You say grow organically, but that's just the thing, it's difficult to grow to support a successful live service game that could in theory fund 5-10 AAA SP games and have the resources to make those single player games organically. The faster you grow and more people you bring in, the more problems you start having.

It's the same thing with multi-core processors: it's difficult to juggle many cores/threads, but it's a necessity these days (since we don't have 10 GHz ST CPUs).

Multi-threading is hard, but it's the only way forward.

People complain about remasters

I don't.

I want an Uncharted 2-3 remaster/remake (including the MP).

Where is it?

Live Service takes over your entire operation and that's why he said Epic hasn't done any single player games since Fortnite

That's historical revisionism at best.

Epic Games hasn't made a SP-only game since the MS-DOS era (Jazz Jackrabbit).

I'm not saying AAA, because MS-DOS games are closer to modern indies. Epic Games has never made a cinematic AAA SP-only project as you insinuate.

Unreal Tournament was a MP game, very popular in 90s LAN parties (kinda like Fortnite these days) and a competitor to Quake.

Gears of War was funded by Microsoft and developed by Epic Games. It's closer to 3rd party than 1st party (since they don't own Epic Games).

You could triple the size of your studio to try and do both, but what happens when your live service game wanes in popularity or the single player game you make isn't successful?

You better tell me what's bound to happen if Intergalactic flops:

I'm pretty sure heads will roll (including Neil's most likely).

Then Sony executives will start having "what if" thoughts. "What if we hadn't cancelled that ND GaaS?"

Trust me, you don't want to see this happening, it could be the demise of ND.

That's kind of why we're seeing all these layoffs in the first place; overgrowth.

I never endorsed COVID lockdowns to begin with. What about you?

 

[ProtoByte]

Sony has so many support studios. Yes naughty dog could have released this and then had another team help it along.

Every studio and publisher has thousands of support devs in apparatus around the world.
Rockstar had more than 2k full time employees in 2018. Once you add on the support teams, you're talking about in excess of 3,000 or 3,500 AT LEAST. Don't even want to know how many people will be credited for GTA6. Despite having that many employees and that much support, they only launched one game in a 7 year generation, all because they were supporting GTA5 Online.

I'll call it right now: The model R* is working with right now is going to crumble, and they'll have to choose. They are not going to have the ability to maintain a 9th gen version of GTA Online AND develop even one 10th generation game.

Bungie bloated themselves from 850 employees to almost 1,200 from when Sony bought them. They're running behind on all of their other projects, and the margins on Destiny are terribly slim. Layoffs already happened, there will be more.

Anything approaching those situations would have been untenable for ND.

This game wasn't going to be like anything Rockstar produces. There was no environmental damage in the 1st factions. You had around 5 maps based on already existing assets in game.

There's no environmental damage in GTA Online, Destiny, Fortnite, Warzone or almost any successful live service right now.

Nice that there are 5 maps based on assets in Factions for the PS3 version of TLOU. We were on late PS4, which for ND is equivalent or superior to most PS5 games in development. They already spent 200 million dollars on just the SP. They're just one in a sea of studios that has abandoned selling games with both MP and SP modes for the price of one title.

Neil got scared cause he doesn't understand mp apparently even though uncharted and tlou had multiplayer modes. Bungies fucked up management team gave horrible advice.

It has nothing to do with Neil. People need to stop spamming his name like that. Telling ND they were delusional to think they were going to be able to do what they do on the SP side whilst maintaining a live service game is the smartest thing Bungie has done since Halo Reach.

 

[Paasei]

I would’ve been interested if it wasn’t GaaS.

 

[John Wick]

Am I the only one that gets hyped for Intergalactic even more when someone posts this shot or a GIF version of it? Looks so good!

...

Yeah I'm probably alone in here

It's gaf. No one has seen the game but some are already calling it shiit. The lead character not being white is also a major problem.

 

[Negotiator101]

Sure Didn't Bungie say it wasn't going well if I remember?

 

[Kokoloko85]

They could but you/Sony cheaped out and didnt give them more staff…

 

[Mibu no ookami]

They could but you/Sony cheaped out and didnt give them more staff…

Where is this staff coming from?

 

[Kokoloko85]

Lmaooool Bungie

As if they know what the fuck they are doing over there

A game that there last DLC scored 89+.
Made more money than GTA5, Roblox and others in June last year.
Amongst the biggers earners last year in its 7 year.

I think they have some idea what they are doing

 

[MMaRsu]

A game that there last DLC scored 89+.
Made more money than GTA5, Roblox and others in June last year.
Amongst the biggers earners last year in its 7 year.

I think they have some idea what they are doing

Just because the whales are addicted to their little wheel of fortune doesnt make it a good game

 

[Kokoloko85]

Where is this staff coming from?

Where ever the other studios like Insomniac got there expanded staff from. Plus support studios.

Worst case, I would of killed Bend earlier and made them work on this instead of whatever they cancelled. Theres so many places they could get extra staff from to make this work

 

[Kokoloko85]

Just because the whales are addicted to their little wheel of fortune doesnt make it a good game

Well plenty of people like it for the gameplay. And scored pretty good. So maybe you just dont like it and its a good game for others

But when it comes to making money and running a game like Destiny, Bungie is one of the few studios who has succeeded, so I think they know what they are doing over most others

 

[Black_Stride]

I was actually looking forward to Factions 2.

I always imagined it would launch PC/PS5 day one and would be my MP game of the generation.

Alas.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

Where ever the other studios like Insomniac got there expanded staff from. Plus support studios.

Worst case, I would of killed Bend earlier and made them work on this instead of whatever they cancelled. Theres so many places they could get extra staff from to make this work

Nothing you're saying is making sense here.

"Where ever [sic] the other studios like Insomniac got there [sic] expanded staff from" What expanded staff? They just had layoffs.

I assume you mean you would have killed what Bend was working on rather than killing the studio, otherwise the rest of your statement doesn't make sense. With Bend's game being killed, what makes you think their contributions to TLOU Online would have been meaningful?

So many people think that getting staff is just a magic solution but it's far more complicated than that.

 

[MMaRsu]

Nah the gameplay is pretty damn good I have to say its the rest that is mediocre

 

[Kokoloko85]

Nothing you're saying is making sense here.

"Where ever [sic] the other studios like Insomniac got there [sic] expanded staff from" What expanded staff? They just had layoffs.

I assume you mean you would have killed what Bend was working on rather than killing the studio, otherwise the rest of your statement doesn't make sense. With Bend's game being killed, what makes you think their contributions to TLOU Online would have been meaningful?

So many people think that getting staff is just a magic solution but it's far more complicated than that.

Sorry for the grammar issues.

I meant.
Sony should expand Naughty Dog to have multiple studios, like they done with Insomniac.

As for Bend and support studios.
It is complicated, but its not that complicated. Studios like Bluepoint have worked with Santa Monica on God of War Ragnarok. Japan studios with FromSoft or Bluepoint, Take2/Rockstar, and theres more examples. Naughty Dog out sources alot too.

Anyway, if Bend had been helping Naughty Dog instead of working on there own MP/Gaas game, it would of faired better than what has happened now for sure, both there games got cancelled, at least it would of helped Factions 2.
Bend are competent and have 140+ staff members, add that to the smaller Factions 2 team, it would surely helped. Sony should of stepped in either before they started the project or during to say yes/no or help them

 

[Mibu no ookami]

Sorry for the grammar issues.

I meant.
Sony should expand Naughty Dog to have multiple studios, like they done with Insomniac.

Naughty Dog has grown tremendously and probably faster than Insomniac. They simply work on extremely different games and a different quality of game. For example, Insomniac reused assets to do Spider-Man Remastered, Miles Morales, Rift Apart, and Spider-Man 2. Things that Guerrilla and Santa Monica kind of got tarred and feathered for doing.

Naughty Dog makes their games from scratch, which makes them industry marvels. As a result their games take longer to make even with more people.

As for Bend and support studios.
It is complicated, but its not that complicated. Studios like Bluepoint have worked with Santa Monica on God of War Ragnarok. Japan studios with FromSoft or Bluepoint, Take2/Rockstar, and theres more examples. Naughty Dog out sources alot too.

Bluepoint is set up to be a support studio, Bend isn't. It all comes down to the type of staff you have. Could Bend in theory have taken over the project? Maybe, but there are a lot of other considerations there. First as I mentioned, Bend isn't a support studio. Second, they still would have had to have staff from Naughty Dog overseeing the game, which would prevent them from working on single player projects. And finally, they missed the timing to get the game out in time for the tv show's peak. Could Bend have gotten the game ready in time after learning all the systems and putting a management structure in place for the second season? Maybe...?

Anyway, if Bend had been helping Naughty Dog instead of working on there own MP/Gaas game, it would of faired better than what has happened now for sure, both there games got cancelled, at least it would of helped Factions 2, Bend are competent and have 140+ staff members, add that to the smaller Factions 2 team, it would surely help. Sony should of stepped in either before they started the project or during to say yes/no or help them

Bend was working on their game before TLOU Online was canceled, but still more importantly, maybe Bend shouldn't be doing live service games... Why would sony step in and force Bend to work on Naughty Dog's game? From all reports the game wasn't canceled because it wasn't good.

 

[Negotiator]

Naughty Dog makes their games from scratch

 

[Sooner]

This seems like something they should have realized before spending years and millions of dollars on making the entire game.

 

[Negotiator]

This seems like something they should have realized before spending years and millions of dollars on making the entire game.

Dude, I remember people telling me I should wait for a standalone GaaS, even though I only wanted a small MP addition/patch to TLOU2.

The exact same people are now telling us GaaS was a "mistake"...

What gives?

 

[Mibu no ookami]

I’m not talking about a glorified dlc. I’m talking about the last two of us 2 to intergalactic.

 

[Negotiator]

I’m not talking about a glorified dlc. I’m talking about the last two of us 2 to intergalactic.

They released it in a physical disc and it had roughly the same duration as UC1 (you wouldn't call that a "glorified DLC").

I've been saying it for a long time that AA $40 releases would make the industry more sustainable.

If Intergalactic fails commercially, rest assured heads will roll at ND HQ. Nobody gets a free pass forever.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

They released it in a physical disc and it had roughly the same duration as UC1 (you wouldn't call that a "glorified DLC").

7 hours of reutilized assets... doesn't matter if you press DLC to disc, it's still DLC.

I've been saying it for a long time that AA $40 releases would make the industry more sustainable.

Not saying this isn't true, but also not sure if that's what gamers want either.

If Intergalactic fails commercially, rest assured heads will roll at ND HQ. Nobody gets a free pass forever.

Doubt Intergalactic fails and Naughty Dog has massive income revenue streams between TLOUP1, TLOUP2, and TLOU HBO, they could probably sustain a commercial failure.

 

[Fake]

You better tell me what's bound to happen if Intergalactic flops:

I'm pretty sure heads will roll (including Neil's most likely).

Hope so. Neil Cuckmen is a sob.

 

[Alebrije]

ND is a great atudio but has reached the point that just one game every 5-6 years os not enought to keep the studio, they need to develop at least 2 AAA IPs at the same time.

If intergalactic flops they will be on great trouble. Even if it has a flat success that would be bad.
If they cant develop a multiplayer game based on TLOU lore they should join another studio to do it.

 

[yurinka]

Sure Didn't Bungie say it wasn't going well if I remember?

They didn't say that.

They said that The Final Shape was a great success but before it didn't meet some target with the previous big expansion and like in the rest of Sony they had to make some restructuring, but part of it was already planned since the acquisition.

 

[yurinka]

Sony should expand Naughty Dog to have multiple studios, like they done with Insomniac.

ND is a great atudio but has reached the point that just one game every 5-6 years os not enought to keep the studio, they need to develop at least 2 AAA IPs at the same time.

If intergalactic flops they will be on great trouble. Even if it has a flat success that would be bad.
If they cant develop a multiplayer game based on TLOU lore they should join another studio to do it.

They already did.

In the last 5 years Naughty Dog grew from having a single team (TLOU2) to have multiple ones working on different projects at the same time:

• TLOU Online (started in 2019)
• Intergalactic (started in 2020, just after shipping TLOU2)
• Unannounced new SP AAA game (started early 2023)
• Small team (mostly to train juniors) overviewing and supporting mostly externally developed remasters / remakes / PC ports
• Small team overviewing and supporting non-gaming IP usage (movies, tv shows, theme park rides, including ND stuff as guest content in other games, etc)

Anyway, if Bend had been helping Naughty Dog instead of working on there own MP/Gaas game, it would of faired better than what has happened now for sure, both there games got cancelled, at least it would of helped Factions 2.
Bend are competent and have 140+ staff members, add that to the smaller Factions 2 team, it would surely helped. Sony should of stepped in either before they started the project or during to say yes/no or help them

ND and Bend have been supporting each other since the PS1/PS2 days when some people of their studio completes their job in a game and has to wait until the next game of their own studio is ready to get them there.

It is a common practice in AAA studios, if you have to wait some months until your next game gets greenlighted/completes preproduction, you often help in a game that somebody else is doing.

If your studio has multiple games being developed at the same time pretty likely will be one of these other games. If not, if the company has multiple studios then pretty likely will be a game made in ones of these other studios. And if not, it will be a team from some friend/partner company.

They do this to avoid having to fire and time later re-hire people and at the same time generate some extra money.

 

[Guerilla Munch]

So Bungie was concern-trolling Naughty Dog into canceling what could have been one of the most popular multiplayer games on the market? And the game was in a playable state at cancellation?

LOL...LMAO even.

 

[Fake]

So Bungie was concern-trolling Naughty Dog into canceling what could have been one of the most popular multiplayer games on the market? And the game was in a playable state at cancellation?

LOL...LMAO even.

Have you played this particular game? Or are you taking this former Playstation exec words?

 

[Johnny Concrete]

The only GAAS project at Sony that really made sense to develop.

I imagined you getting dropped off at a city with 2/3 other players and doing scavenge runs to collect stuff for your groups (clan) hideout ('we need more medical supplies, lets head to the hospital'). On your way there you fight your way through infected and in the hospital you hear gunshots: another group has already entered the building, let's make sure they don't get away with our supplies!

Fuck, that game would've made TRILLIONS.

 

[Perrott]

Bend was working on their game before TLOU Online was canceled, but still more importantly, maybe Bend shouldn't be doing live service games... Why would sony step in and force Bend to work on Naughty Dog's game? From all reports the game wasn't canceled because it wasn't good.

Two things:

• Bend Studio already had familiarity with The Last Of Us Online, as part of their staff was asigned to work alongside Naughty Dog on the game during it's early stages from 2020 up until 2022, while a skeleton crew at Bend conceptualized and prototyped their new IP.
  Given the open-world elements at play in TLOU Online's design and structure (not only within it's two-player The Division-esque narrative mode, but also in the competitive battle royale), it makes sense that Bend would've helped Naughty Dog laid the foundations for the huge map of San Francisco that the game was taking place in. After all, in open-world titles, one of the very first things that needs to be worked on is a rough outline of the game world to iterate and build upon over all the remaining years of development.
• The reason why it isn't a bad idea to have Bend work on live-service games is that they never found a proper replacement for the skillset that John Garvin brought to the table during his tenure at Bend: he was the sole writer of the studio's games for over 15 years, as well as their major creative lead. His exit from the studio left them with a void in the creative/writing side of things that was never filled; not even with Bend's ill-fated hiring of two Hollywood writers back when there were still forces within the team pushing for Days Gone 2 to be done. Once that didn't work out, it was clear that Bend couldn't get a traditional singleplayer, narrative-focused game off the ground on their own, so the short-lived collaboration with Naughty Dog (who'd do the heavy-lifting in the creative and writing fronts) for an Uncharted spin-off starring Sully was born, before Bend asked to be taken off the project and be given the chance for "the new guard" to work on an all-new original game of their own, which was their now cancelled live-service new IP.

 

[Perrott]

ND is a great atudio but has reached the point that just one game every 5-6 years os not enought to keep the studio, they need to develop at least 2 AAA IPs at the same time.

If intergalactic flops they will be on great trouble. Even if it has a flat success that would be bad.
If they cant develop a multiplayer game based on TLOU lore they should join another studio to do it.

In spite of TLOU Online's cancellation, they've already made TLOU Part I in heavy collaboration with Visual Arts between the releases of TLOU Part II and Intergalactic.

That same group within Naughty Dog is collaborating once again with Visual Arts, in what does seem like another remake project that I'd say should be slated to release within the next 18 months, likely before Intergalactic.

We also know that early development on TLOU Part III began sometime in 2022, per the TLOU Part II documentary. That will be probably be out by 2030, for both PS5 and PS6.

With all that in mind:

• The Last Of Us Part II (2020)
• Uncharted: Legacy of Thieves Collection (2022)
• The Last Of Us Part I (2022)
• The Last Of Us Part II Remastered (2024)
• Uncharted: Drake's Fortune remake? (2025/2026)
• Intergalactic: The Heretic Prophet (2026/2027)
• The Last Of Us Part III (2029/2030) <--- coinciding with Season 4 of the HBO show

Not a bad output for a decade that saw the cancellation of TLOU Online, their biggest project to date.

Hell, for all we know, they might even have put the gears in motion to have something TLOU-related come out in time for Season 3 of the show - over two years from now - in a similar fashion as to how Guerrilla or Santa Monica had been partnering with teams both internally and externally for Horizon and God of War-adjacent projects over the past few years.

 

[Kokoloko85]

Why would sony step in and force Bend to work on Naughty Dog's game? From all reports the game wasn't canceled because it wasn't good.

Because i think it would of probably worked out better than whats happened now. It couldnt be worse than whats happened with 2 cancelled games.
Bad management on all parts

 

[Mibu no ookami]

Because i think it would of probably worked out better than whats happened now. It couldnt be worse than whats happened with 2 cancelled games.
Bad management on all parts

Not having 20/20 hindsight is not bad management.

 

[yurinka]

Two things:

• Bend Studio already had familiarity with The Last Of Us Online, as part of their staff was asigned to work alongside Naughty Dog on the game during it's early stages from 2020 up until 2022, while a skeleton crew at Bend conceptualized and prototyped their new IP.
  Given the open-world elements at play in TLOU Online's design and structure (not only within it's two-player The Division-esque narrative mode, but also in the competitive battle royale), it makes sense that Bend would've helped Naughty Dog laid the foundations for the huge map of San Francisco that the game was taking place in. After all, in open-world titles, one of the very first things that needs to be worked on is a rough outline of the game world to iterate and build upon over all the remaining years of development.

• The reason why it isn't a bad idea to have Bend work on live-service games is that they never found a proper replacement for the skillset that John Garvin brought to the table during his tenure at Bend: he was the sole writer of the studio's games for over 15 years, as well as their major creative lead. His exit from the studio left them with a void in the creative/writing side of things that was never filled; not even with Bend's ill-fated hiring of two Hollywood writers back when there were still forces within the team pushing for Days Gone 2 to be done. Once that didn't work out, it was clear that Bend couldn't get a traditional singleplayer, narrative-focused game off the ground on their own, so the short-lived collaboration with Naughty Dog (who'd do the heavy-lifting in the creative and writing fronts) for an Uncharted spin-off starring Sully was born, before Bend asked to be taken off the project and be given the chance for "the new guard" to work on an all-new original game of their own, which was their now cancelled live-service new IP.

According to its directors, Bend originally considered to include a secondary MP element to DG1 (I assume like GoT), didn't implement it and left it to maybe include it in a potential sequel.

Bend's new IP was a SP open world with MP/GaaS elements that got many things from DG. Meaning, pretty likely many of the ideas they had for DG2 were in this new IP.

The DG1 directors had ideas for Days Gone 2, but DG2 never entered production or was even pitched to Sony because the head of Bend and other heads of the studio prefered to make a new IP instead.

Writing isn't a big issue for AAA studios, it's a pretty minor thing and can hire someone if needed.

In the period between the release of DG1 and getting the greenlight to start the production of Bend's new IP, as happened since days ago while waiting for their next team Bend and ND help each other. In this case people of Bend supported ND in TLOU Online or an Uncharted spinoff until the next Bend game got its preproduction complete and got the greenlight to start full production.

 

[yurinka]

In spite of TLOU Online's cancellation, they've already made TLOU Part I in heavy collaboration with Visual Arts between the releases of TLOU Part II and Intergalactic.

That same group within Naughty Dog is collaborating once again with Visual Arts, in what does seem like another remake project that I'd say should be slated to release within the next 18 months, likely before Intergalactic.

We also know that early development on TLOU Part III began sometime in 2022, per the TLOU Part II documentary. That will be probably be out by 2030, for both PS5 and PS6.

With all that in mind:

• The Last Of Us Part II (2020)
• Uncharted: Legacy of Thieves Collection (2022)
• The Last Of Us Part I (2022)
• The Last Of Us Part II Remastered (2024)
• Uncharted: Drake's Fortune remake? (2025/2026)
• Intergalactic: The Heretic Prophet (2026/2027)
• The Last Of Us Part III (2029/2030) <--- coinciding with Season 4 of the HBO show

Not a bad output for a decade that saw the cancellation of TLOU Online, their biggest project to date.

Hell, for all we know, they might even have put the gears in motion to have something TLOU-related come out in time for Season 3 of the show - over two years from now - in a similar fashion as to how Guerrilla or Santa Monica had been partnering with teams both internally and externally for Horizon and God of War-adjacent projects over the past few years.

ND had a single team working in TLOU2. In 2019 it got split in two: one for TLOU2 (the SP part) and the other one branched out the TLOU2 MP part to turn it into a standalone MP game (TLOU Online).

Once the SP team shipped TLOU2 in 2020, they started to work in Intergalactic (which could be released maybe around 2026).

In the TLOU 2 documentary Druckman says in mid 2023 they finally have an idea for TLOU3 but that still aren't developing it. In the cancelation of TLOU Online we know they are working in new (so not counting remakes/remasters) SP games (in plural, so they are working in a SP game that isn't Intergalactic or looking at dates, TLOU3).

From a previous interview we know that in late 2022 ND had two main games, being TLOU Online and Neil's project (Intergalactic).

Meaning, the SP game they are developing and isn't TLOU3 or Intergalactic pretty likely started early 2023.

They also mentioned that the small team they have overviewing / supporting remasters/remakes/ports are mostly juniors.

TLDR, ND has minimum these teams:

1. Intergalactic (started late 2020, may release around late 2026)
2. Unannounced SP game under development that isn't TLOU3 (started around early 2023, may release late 2027-2030)
3. TLOU Online (started 2019-cancelled Dec 2023), maybe part of the team started to work in TLOU3 after TLOU Online got cancelled, maybe not
4. Overviewing & supporting remasters / remake / ports: smaller team, mostly juniors
5. Overviewing & supporting ND IP usage elsewhere ( mostly non-gaming adaptations): very small team that helps the people making movies, tv shows, them park rides, guest content in games like Fortnite or Astro Bot, etc.

Doing some guess work, I bet Neil's idea was to cancel TLOU Online to put part of that people to make TLOU3 instead, probably reusing a lot of work done for TLOU Online.

I assume that their remasters/remakes/ports people have some people overviewing TLOU2 Remastered PC port, and other people working on (in addition with some other team, as could be Creative Arts Service Group, Iron Galaxy, Bend or Nixxes) an Uncharted 1 remake or a PS5+PC remaster of the Nathan Drake Collection.

 

[Negotiator]

The only GAAS project at Sony that really made sense to develop.

I imagined you getting dropped off at a city with 2/3 other players and doing scavenge runs to collect stuff for your groups (clan) hideout ('we need more medical supplies, lets head to the hospital'). On your way there you fight your way through infected and in the hospital you hear gunshots: another group has already entered the building, let's make sure they don't get away with our supplies!

Fuck, that game would've made TRILLIONS.

I agree, but most gamers are anti-social, so they'd rather play alone...