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[DenchDeckard]

I wonder what the pro is going to have in it...I can't think of an AMD part since the launch of the ps5 and xbox that would offer a significant step up.

The ps5 and series x is pretty much based on the 6000 series of gpus right?

Kind of like a 6700 or so gpu? Surely Sony will have taped this part out with AMD already? So it xould probs be some hybrid RDNA 3 OR 3.5 ypu could say?

Really interested to see what they do with it tbh.

What would blow my mind, and I mean get me really hyped. Put 3D cache on this fucker and blow my socks off.

 

[SHA]

We all know that as soon as the Pro is announced DF will be excited especially if the performance boost is noteworthy but until then I wish they would just stop talking about it I've yet to hear them postulate the kind of hardware we could see next year but instead they'd rather just bitch about it at least Rich seems to want to further the discussion but I'm over it

They're weirdly positive, like if you put them on any situation I'm sure they'll find a way to get through and be happy again.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Last time there was all the FUD about developers not being able to work with 2 SKU’s, PS4/PS4 Pro. Thats been proven not to be an issue

Actually no, it was proven to be true. Most devs barely spent much time on those consoles for the longest time outside of what they could brute force (and a few interns) and that also helped to create a longer cross generation period too which people loved right ? I am not sure we should celebrate people being sold more and more of a promise of potential than anything.

On top of that we have diminishing returns in terms of how much HW performance you need to get to deliver meaningful improvements to games and yet HW performance is not advancing any faster (quite the opposite: it is more and more expensive to jump from one manufacturing node to the next and it takes longer and longer to do).

 

[Panajev2001a]

Wider apu? Think they'll double up again so goto 72CUs with better RT?

Day one..wish it cost like a grand lol

Number of devs that would optimise for it? Near 0 .

 

[Go_Ly_Dow]

Assuming a price cap of lets say $499-599, what kind of power can we expect? They could launch it as low as $499 without a disc drive like the Slim and sell it separetly as an attachment remember.

 

[CanYouFlyBobby?]

Maybe 50 but probably in the mid-high 40s.

would be safe to assume that a 2029-2030 ps6 nexbox would have a gpu in the 100tflop range perhaps

 

[DeepEnigma]

Actually no, it was proven to be true. Most devs barely spent much time on those consoles for the longest time outside of what they could brute force (and a few interns) and that also helped to create a longer cross generation period too which people loved right ? I am not sure we should celebrate people being sold more and more of a promise of potential than anything.

On top of that we have diminishing returns in terms of how much HW performance you need to get to deliver meaningful improvements to games and yet HW performance is not advancing any faster (quite the opposite: it is more and more expensive to jump from one manufacturing node to the next and it takes longer and longer to do).

I would only want one if it meant games being pushed to 30fps on the base consoles, would then get a 60fps mode (brute force, IDC) on them.

 

[Kokoloko85]

Actually no, it was proven to be true. Most devs barely spent much time on those consoles for the longest time outside of what they could brute force (and a few interns) and that also helped to create a longer cross generation period too which people loved right ? I am not sure we should celebrate people being sold more and more of a promise of potential than anything.

On top of that we have diminishing returns in terms of how much HW performance you need to get to deliver meaningful improvements to games and yet HW performance is not advancing any faster (quite the opposite: it is more and more expensive to jump from one manufacturing node to the next and it takes longer and longer to do).

Devs seen to be doing fine with alot more options on performance/graphics now etc. Cross gen includes the base PS4’s so the pro isnt to be blamed for that.

And I enjoyed the returns. Difference between PS4 Horizon, God of War vs Pro was a big difference for me Same with some other titles

 

[Physiognomonics]

Do you realize what you guys are asking from the pro is a generational leap?

Half step like previous mid-gen consoles. BTW X1X was almost a gen leap compared to XB1! I'd say PS5 Pro could be between PS4 Pro and X1X half-step leap. But PS4 Pro was only $399

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

Devs seen to be doing fine with alot more options on performance/graphics now etc. Cross gen includes the base PS4’s so the pro isnt to be blamed for that.

And I enjoyed the returns. Difference between PS4 Horizon, God of War vs Pro was a big difference for me Same with some other titles

Another thing to point out is that developers will soon not need to support ps4 and ps4 pro

So they will only have ps5 and ps5 Pro to worry about, which is much easier than juggling cross gen platforms

So the level of effort will be going down dramatically since ps5 pro shares all the same basic features as a ps5 and isn’t hindered by lack of SSD and a weak cpu like the ps4 gen

 

[Panajev2001a]

I would only want one if it meant games being pushed to 30fps on the base consoles, would then get a 60fps mode (brute force, IDC) on them.

This is a tall order unless the base console was basically reaching 45-50 FPS (and then you could have the game at 40 FPS on the base console)… I see either the base PS5 players getting shortchanged or the PS5 Pro ones… everything but our “desire/unhappiness with current gen compromises” is kind of saying releasing more HW more frequently is not the answer.

Sure, if we were given a 800 Watts beast of a console or more with a massive case and an even greater price tag maybe, but we would kid ourselves in terms of sales and thus developer adoption (and it would make a normal PS6 look like shit despite the price being more normal).

 

[DeepEnigma]

This is a tall order unless the base console was basically reaching 45-50 FPS (and then you could have the game at 40 FPS on the base console)… I see either the base PS5 players getting shortchanged or the PS5 Pro ones… everything but our “desire/unhappiness with current gen compromises” is kind of saying releasing more HW more frequently is not the answer.

Sure, if we were given a 800 Watts beast of a console or more with a massive case and an even greater price tag maybe, but we would kid ourselves in terms of sales and thus developer adoption (and it would make a normal PS6 look like shit despite the price being more normal).

I mean, Sony's first party games have been offering 2-3 modes this entire gen. 30fps, 40fps, 60fps.

If they go with chiplet, I could see this happening. Sony first party does a lot of GPGPU work in their games.

 

[Ivan]

66% IPC gain from the cpu isn't enough to give a push across the entire library, I think it's going to be the opposite this time, last time the pro meant to keep gamers from switching to pcs, and now it will just make them run away from consoles cause pcs have done it long-time ago, and way better actually.

And everybody wants PC gaming experience by default, right?

 

[iamvin22]

I wonder what the pro is going to have in it...I can't think of an AMD part since the launch of the ps5 and xbox that would offer a significant step up.

The ps5 and series x is pretty much based on the 6000 series of gpus right?

Kind of like a 6700 or so gpu? Surely Sony will have taped this part out with AMD already? So it xould probs be some hybrid RDNA 3 OR 3.5 ypu could say?

Really interested to see what they do with it tbh.

What would blow my mind, and I mean get me really hyped. Put 3D cache on this fucker and blow my socks off.

Just increase the clocks and whatever cores that are not in use turned on is my guess.

 

[tusharngf]

Has anything significant leaked so far? anyone

 

[Panajev2001a]

Devs seen to be doing fine with alot more options on performance/graphics now

Are they? Or are they asking their users to optimise the games for them… if everyone is so fine with this (how does the performance mode of FF XVI work out already ?) why are we here desperate for more HW iterations?

How is this taking into account that Moore’s Law is slowing down more and more since then and we definitely have diminishing returns hitting hard (each noticeable / meaningful jump requiring greater and greater HW capabilities jumps even if well optimised and we are not adding reasons to invest in set specs and optimise for them by introducing more and more HW variety)?

If the base consoles had very very significant design issues it would be more achievable, but do they?

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

Are they? Or are they asking their users to optimise the games for them… if everyone is so fine with this (how does the performance mode of FF XVI work out already ?) why are we here desperate for more HW iterations?

How is this taking into account that Moore’s Law is slowing down more and more since then and we definitely have diminishing returns hitting hard (each noticeable / meaningful jump requiring greater and greater HW capabilities jumps even if well optimised and we are not adding reasons to invest in set specs and optimise for them by introducing more and more HW variety)?

If the base consoles had very very significant design issues it would be more achievable, but do they?

If you can get new hardware that doubles the resolution or Framerate it’s a worthwhile leap

That’s what we will get. It’s less difficult to manage than cross gen

 

[Thirty7ven]

They are smart enough to understand that for the PS5 pro to achieve what people want, Sony would be better off just holding off until the PS6.

The base PS5 increased in price after launch which isn't very common so this thing would have to be like $700+ and the base PS5 would still be the baseline so what would really be the point? This is how they are viewing it.

The Series S was a dumb move by MS, why should sony follow the same mistake with doing two different SKU? The current console can already do 60 FPS lol.

They don’t even know how much it costs for Sony to produce a PS5. You don’t know.

A PS5 pro becomes an option for the buyer who wants the console experience, and is willing to pay for a newer model. With a Slim at 399$ they can’t have a pro at 550$? Big doubt.

They can design the hardware around RT and hardware based upscaling, effectively reaching the performance spec without having to double the size of the gpu.

If you are an hardware enthusiast and game tech enthusiast like these guys present themselves, what’s with the lack of interest?

“The console can already do 60” what kind of observation is this? So could the PS2.

 

[Panajev2001a]

If you can get new hardware that doubles the resolution or Framerate it’s a worthwhile leap

That is a big big IF.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

That is a big big IF.

May not be double but it’ll be a noticeable leap

Ps4 pro was basically 1080p to 1800p and it was obvious to many

 

[SlimySnake]

Not really.
AMD Radeon RX 7900 XTX review - (Raytracing) DXR Raytracing performance - Synthetic

7900XT = 84CUs = 43fps
6950 = 80CUs = 29fps

29 + 50% = 43.5
Keeping in mind the 4CU difference, i think AMD is spot on about their up to 50% claim.

I'd say its up to 40% because the 7900xt has around a 100 mhz clockspeed increase on top of the 4 extra CUs compared with the 6950xt, 23.65 vs 26 tflops. But yes, there seems to be an RT performance gain in syntehtic benchmarks.

Sadly, it doesnt seem to be translating 1:1 in games so far. Looks like a 18-30% difference with 30% being the best it could do in the RT heavy cyberpunk when it should be at least 50%. If I was a perspective PS5 Pro owner, i would not be expecting a giant leap for RT enabled games. Especially since they will be bound by memory bandwidth and the CPU on consoles.

EDIT: tagging A alloush for visibility.

 

[Historia]

I think price gonna be something like this:
Slim:300 USD, Pro: 500 USD, attachable disc drive: 99 USD.

Currently a PS5 Unit costs like some where around 350USD, with Slim model they could reduce it to below 300 USD. While a Pro model will sold at a loss of 50 USD per unit at launch.

 

[JerryinSoCal]

I really don't get anyone who's against Sony releasing a PS5 Pro, it'd be optional and as we saw last then the PS4 Pro didn't have any negative impact on PS4 development. It's just an option for enthusiasts who can afford a little more but don't want to get into spending a lot more on a PC and having the issues that go along with that.

 

[SHA]

And everybody wants PC gaming experience by default, right?

Framerate isn't expensive, it costs nothing on pc, let's get clear about what really costs nothing on pc that makes it superior before we talk about tflops and technology, cause there's a lot of PR going on on what does and doesn't cost these publishers money to patch these games.

 

[Historia]

Why would you "cringe about a detachable" drive? Does one cringe at optional BR drives on you PC setups? How is that even "cringe" worthy? You saying it's cringe is what's cringe, lol.

And Alex wants to say, "developers have enough to code against" as to why there should not be a Pro? Oh, boy. In a world... where the S exists.

All they're doing is repeating themselves, until they won't when, you know...

I don't understand why these people are treated like experts. These people are just Beyond3d enthusiasts who counts frame, resolution and "speculate" some shit. They are not engineers nor developers. The FUD they spill is insane.

 

[SlimySnake]

May not be double but it’ll be a noticeable leap

Ps4 pro was basically 1080p to 1800p and it was obvious to many

I think the 4kcb was Cerny's trump card with the PS4 Pro. It wasnt just 1080p to 1440p, it felt like a bigger leap. I remember when DF was struggling to figure out native from 4kcb images early on.

I think this time around Cerny has to realize that 4kcb which was good enough in 2016 is no longer good enough and even FSR2.0 needs that AI pass that makes DLSS so good. He needs to add some kind of ML hardware in the PS5 Pro instead of just licensing whatever AMD gives him. I will be very disappointed if they do a copy pasta with the Pro. Extra RT cores for better RT performance will go a long way making sure we get at least 2x more RT performance. Looks like AMD does 1 RT core per CU right now, maybe Cerny and his japanese engineers can help AMD figure out something they havent been able to figure out for the last 5 years.

 

[Kokoloko85]

Are they? Or are they asking their users to optimise the games for them… if everyone is so fine with this (how does the performance mode of FF XVI work out already ?) why are we here desperate for more HW iterations?

How is this taking into account that Moore’s Law is slowing down more and more since then and we definitely have diminishing returns hitting hard (each noticeable / meaningful jump requiring greater and greater HW capabilities jumps even if well optimised and we are not adding reasons to invest in set specs and optimise for them by introducing more and more HW variety)?

If the base consoles had very very significant design issues it would be more achievable, but do they?

I dont know what you are trying to convince me of tbh.
Im glad we get performance options, 60fps modes. Like in Demons Souls, Ratchet and Clank, TLOU2, Death stranding, Ghost of Tsushima, RE8, FF16. Im glad I got to play God of War, Horizon, Sekro at better fps than the base PS4

 

[DenchDeckard]

I'm really intrigues to hear the specs of this thing becuase if it's targeting a 500 dollar price point I can only really see it being 25 to 30 percent more performance than a ps5...unless they add 3D cache and its like 600 to 700 dollars?

 

[SlimySnake]

DF discusses the slim and possible Pro

Timestamped

These guys are a joke. They should be jumping at the opportunity to discuss and test a new console. They are clearly posers who have zero interest in covering this industry.

By their own findings, we have seen games like Dead Space and FF16 struggle to 60 fps at 1080p dropping down to sub 720p, and yet when we have reports of a console that can do exactly that, they are meh on it. Bizarre.

Just watch them fall in line the moment MS announces a new console. i remember the cum guzzling when the X1X was revealed. I think MS partnered with DF to announce the specs. Fake edit: Yes they did.

Last week, Digital Foundry was invited to Microsoft's Redmond campus for an exclusive preview of the technology in the next Xbox, codenamed Project Scorpio. As specs reveals go, this one is unprecedented: it's a first in terms of early access to key system architects, and one of a kind in terms of timing. Scorpio is seemingly running ahead of schedule, to the point where we're likely six months away from release at least, and we've already seen impressive software running beautifully on production silicon.

Inside the next Xbox: Project Scorpio tech revealed

Digital Foundry has the specs, has seen it running, and has talked to the people who built it.

www.eurogamer.net

Also, Developers went out of their way to continue producing cross gen games up until recently. They had no problems producing PS4, PS4 Pro, X1S, X1X, XSX, PS5 and PC versions, and now that the cross gen period is over, they will have an issue with making PS5, PS5 Pro, XSX and XSS games? Absolute nonsense speculation from Alex.

At least John brings up valid concerns like the pricepoint, but I dont see why Sony will stick with $499 or even $549 when they have no problems selling 2020 hardware for $549. They will be targeting $599 and AMD should have a 20 tflops equivalent ready for them. Roughly double the performance is what they did with the PS4 Pro and what they should be able to with the PS5 Pro.

The thermals might be an issue but it didnt stop them from releasing a 220 Watt console that goes up to 230 watts in some games. I remember people who were convinced that the PS5 would be a 150 watt console just because the PS4 and PS4 Pro were 150 watts. If the Pro needs to be 250 Watts, they will release it as one. Pretty sure the PS5 already comes with a 350 watt power supply.

Regardless, even if we assume Sony phones this in and releases a 20 tflops RDNA 3.0 GPU that is only 50% more powerful instead of the 100% more powerful PS4 Pro, they SHOULD be excited as tech fucking journalists. Its christmas come early for tech nerds. Why are these guys too cool for new hardware all of a sudden?

 

[Mahavastu]

May not be double but it’ll be a noticeable leap

Ps4 pro was basically 1080p to 1800p and it was obvious to many

we already have several games like star wars and FF16 going down to 640p or 720p to reach stable 60fps.
Yes, FSR2.x can upscale pretty good, but I am sure that if a PS5 pro can reach higher internal resolutions and we are maybe getting better upscaling on DLSS levels, some power users will happily pay the price for the Pro.

 

[Investor9872]

PS5 PRO is coming and it will be a 60fps machine and that will more than make it worth the money. Final fantasy 16 running at 60 fps in the quality mode would be great. I still don't get it why Digital Foundry is so against it. I can make the same arguments against high end GPUs. They certainly don't help in regards to optimisation on the PC side.

That's just it. You hit it right on the nail. Alex and company want all developers to just concentrate on making PC games, so they will roll their eyes and smack their lips if they hear that another potential system is on the horizon that will take away their game developers' precious time from making PC games that run on all 16,000 plus graphic cards.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

These guys are a joke. They should be jumping at the opportunity to discuss and test a new console. They are clearly posers who have zero interest in covering this industry.

A joke is right

Claiming one new SKU with better performance massively complicates development while they drool over every new NVIDIA gpu release

Claiming a Pro version would signal that the base isn’t good enough yet they were all over the “anaconda” hype train

These guys are so unbelievably dull with terrible takes for a press outlet devoted to technology

 

[vivftp]

I'm really intrigues to hear the specs of this thing becuase if it's targeting a 500 dollar price point I can only reallynsee it being 25 tom30 percent more performance than a ps5...unless they add 3D cache and its like 600 to 700 dollars?

Sony might also be expecting to pick up additional revenue off the optional disc drive to help with the production of the consoles. They may also be willing to take an initial loss on the hardware for the Pro with the intention of making profit on the hardware down the road.

My guess continues to be that for the PS5 revision, the Pro and the drive that they price it at:

PS5 - $399
PS5 Pro - $499
Disc drive - $99

That way for any of those people who want a drive, they're actually paying $499/599 for their consoles. If Sony's aiming pretty high with the Pro specs, the drive could definitely help lessen any blows to their production costs.

 

[I Love Rock 'n' Roll]

Why would you "cringe about a detachable" drive? Does one cringe at optional BR drives on you PC setups? How is that even "cringe" worthy? You saying it's cringe is what's cringe, lol.

And Alex wants to say, "developers have enough to code against" as to why there should not be a Pro? Oh, boy. In a world... where the S exists.

All they're doing is repeating themselves, until they won't when, you know...

He's MS slave. At this point, investigations should be made if he's getting paid, and how much, by MS to give fakenews (the guy has not stop during the early PS5 days). This guy is everything you want but a journalist. So, I'm not at all surprise to hear he's quite, again and again and again, against everything Sony does.

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

He's MS slave. At this point, investigations should be made if he's getting paid, and how much, by MS to give fakenews

 

[Go_Ly_Dow]

I like the DF guys and respect their work, but agree that their apathy for a PS5 Pro releasing mid-late 2024 is quite odd.

 

[ChiefDada]

RT is too demanding even with the Pro consoles. I don't think pro consoles will make much of a difference. Even with most of the expensive GPUs on PC, can't hit 4k 60fps.

1. How do you/we know? Why aren't you taking game engines into account? Metro Exodus Engine has no issue running RTGI 6 60fps on console. Also, even the high end PC market understands that native resolution is such a wasteful and inefficient use of resources when we have very capable upscaling technology that will only get better. It's time to move away from meaningless spec figures. 4k, #Tflops, etc.

 

[XesqueVara]

Thay's why I think Sony gonna use in-house proprietary hardware this combined with their matured API, sticking with AMD is just not gonna cut it.

Huh? Sony would need to build a CPU/GPU division for making that happen bro lol,AMD IP is customizable it´s Sony who decides to build with It.

 

[XesqueVara]

I wouldn´t be Surprised if Sony backported RDNA4 RT IP in the Pro console, moving from RDNA 2 to RDNA 3 would break Compatibility at Shader Level which would Fuck BC, if the Focus is RT it´s way more easier to Backport something into it.

 

[Loxus]

I'm seeing some assumptions that Sony needs to create their own RT and ML hardware, but we are missing an important piece from Mark Cerny in Road to PS5.

"First, we have a custom AMD GPU based on their "RDNA2" technology. What does that mean? AMD is continuously improving and revising their tech for RDNA2, their goals were roughly speaking to reduce power of consumption by re-architecting the GPU to put data close to where it's needed. To optimize the GPU for performance and to add new more advanced feature set.

But that feature set is malleable, which is to say that we have our own needs for PlayStation and that can factor into what the AMD roadmap becomes.

So collaboration is born.

If we bring concepts to AMD that are felt to be widely useful then they can be adopted into RDNA - and used broadly including in PC GPUs.

If the ideas are sufficiently specific to what we're trying to accomplish like the GPU cache scrubbers I was talking about, then they end up being just for us.

If you see a similar discrete GPU available as a PC card at roughly the same time as we release our console, that means our collaboration with AMD succeeded."


In short, Sony (Microsoft as well) and AMD collaborated to create RDNA architecture and feature set.

Seeing PS5 using the same RT as AMD’s GPUs means PS5 RT is part of that collaboration. I expect further collaboration with the PS5 Pro and PS6 feature set, so PS5 Pro will have the same RT as AMD's GPU.

That Sony RT patent speaks more like an API patent then proprietary hardware patent, which makes sense since Sony doesn't use DirectX Ray Tracing.

This goes for ML as well.
The AI accelerators in RDNA3 could be from another collaboration with Sony.

And if the Nvidia fans think the AI accelerators aren't enough, Sony can incorporate XDNA into their APU.

 

[Kuwitzzer]

Thay's why I think Sony gonna use in-house proprietary hardware this combined with their matured API, sticking with AMD is just not gonna cut it.

I really like the idea of in-house hardware by Sony. But it does not seem like a very plausible idea because of the heavy R&D investment. However, can we make a case that using in-house reduces the cost of making the console? I am not very savvy when it comes to tech so I would be very grateful if somebody can analyze this for me.

 

[Trogdor1123]

Maybe 50 but probably in the mid-high 40s.

You mistyped teens or 20

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

You mistyped teens or 20

Your numbers are likely spot on

 

[asdasdasdbb]

You mistyped teens or 20

Remember that RDNA 3 can theoretically do 2x FP32 per CU than RDNA 2. So double the CUs of the Base PS5 and 20% higher frequency, you're already at 48.

 

[Historia]

Remember that RDNA 3 can theoretically do 2x FP32 per CU than RDNA 2. So double the CUs of the Base PS5 and 20% higher frequency, you're already at 48.

Tflops matter little in pure performance gain. Theretically Pro should need 40 Tflops to consistently outperforms standard model by 100%

 

[Investor9872]

Tflops matter little in pure performance gain. Theretically Pro should need 40 Tflops to consistently outperforms standard model by 100%

I think Sony will be going in a different direction this generation with the PS5 Pro. The main focus will be 2X - 2.5X raytracing instead of increasing the teraflops, which will probably still be around the current number of 10.3 teraflops.

 

[Neo_game]

I don't understand how Pro is going to have any impact on PS5 optimization. The way I see the quality mode on PS5 will be the new performance mode on the Pro. Control for example runs at 1440P 30fps in quality mode with RT. Pro should be able to runs this on 60fps. The worst case scenario would be that if some game is massively CPU bound. Then Pro will have 40fps option for 120hz + RT or resolution bump. Because I do not think there is going to big CPU upgrade on Pro. In those cases only resolution bump or RT can be enabled. PS5 game will be optimized the same way with or without the Pro. Pro will also give boost to PSVR2 games. IMO it is a good thing to have option for those who like to upgrade

 

[Trogdor1123]

Remember that RDNA 3 can theoretically do 2x FP32 per CU than RDNA 2. So double the CUs of the Base PS5 and 20% higher frequency, you're already at 48.

I’m no way is any of that happening. That would be an Apu with better performance than their thousand dollar card…

 

[Bry0]

Some of y’all need to stop chugging the marketing koolaid and look at how rdna3 actually performs. It’s already out. Strix will be a good indicator of what a ps5 pro might look like, don’t expect magic RT.

 

[RTX4070]

I

And everybody wants PC gaming experience by default, right?

Its easier than ever. Especially W11 HDR is working fine. Its awesome abd much better than consoles.