Support NeoGAF

[YeulEmeralda]

It's a gimmick. Very few games have convincing effects and the impact on performance is still high. It's worth remembering that this has been pushed to players since 2018, even though the hardware wasn't ready yet.

Obviously Cerny is putting his faith in this, because he is already thinking about the PS6 and there, RT performance will be increased and become an industry standard.

We are in a transitional period, so obviously, it is not 100% worth it. It's like the transition from 2D to 3D, the PS1/Saturn games were very rudimentary. Vast games with satisfying 3D, only from the PS2 generation onwards.

Nvidia was ready for ray tracing the consoles were not.

 

[SolidQ]

Under a 7900XT (raster?) and high end prices.

yeah, let's just w8 final driver and gaming perfomance

 

[AFBT88]

Performance estimates from Allthewatts is dissapointing. Under a 7900XT (raster?) and high end prices.

AMD never misses and opputunity to drop the ball when it comes to GPU launches.

I guess they might catch up in some capacity in RT and Ai upscaling *shrugs*

What opportunity?

 

[hinch7]

What opportunity?

To completely take the mid-range market. Like Intel is doing right now in the lower end/entry level with the B580.

If this performs similarly to the 5070 and priced as such, people will just default to Nvidia.

 

[SpokkX]

Yeah i sure hope so if they want to stay in the gpu market

The consoles these last gens are so shitty because they are based on amd gpu:s. They need a reboot

 

[sendit]

Yeah i sure hope so if they want to stay in the gpu market

The consoles these last gens are so shitty because they are based on amd gpu:s. They need a reboot

Zero sense. The consoles the previous gen were also based on AMD. It's called having a budget and power draw constraint. Do you think NVIDIA could design a exponentially greater GPU/CPU combo given the budget of a 500 dollar box? If you want top of the line graphics, get a $3000+ PC.

 

[twilo99]

Yeah i sure hope so if they want to stay in the gpu market

The consoles these last gens are so shitty because they are based on anemic Zen 2 CPUs. They need a reboot

main issue

 

[evanft]

The biggest elements that contribute towards the "video game look" are a lack of shadows on smaller objects in a scene, light leakage leading to areas looking unnaturally bright, and a lack of reflections on objects, or reflections missing elements that are out of camera. All of that can be solved by ray tracing, and you can run at 60 FPS even on mid-range GPUs.

So yes, if game scenes looking realistic is a gimmick, then ray tracing is a gimmick.

If AMD releases a series of cards that match nVidia in RT, the discourse on RT will change overnight and we'll never hear about it being a gimmick again. Just like when everyone was up in arms about the TDP of the 4000 series GPUs until they came out and ended up being incredibly efficient. Haven't heard "MUH POWER BILL" or "MUH SEPARATE PSU FOR GPU" since then.

 

[llien]

If not AMD sponsored then aimed at console RT power - no difference.

Really, these 2 are the only possibilities that you can come up with?

The vary game that you have picked up as an example of "where RT matters".
The one which doesn't bring much with RT enabled, should hint you to at least one more possiility.

might catch up in some capacity in RT

Can you describe how "caught up" AMD looks like. Apparently being within 10-15% on average (7900XTX vs 4080) it is not.

 

[Zathalus]

Can you describe how "caught up" AMD looks like.

Not sucking in RT games that actually matter. How is AMD holding up in Black Myth and Indiana Jones there?

 

[Salty Pickle]

main issue

I don’t agree the cpu is that bad, especially conpared to last gen. The zen2 cpus in the consoles are in the absolute majority of games able to hit 60, 120 is not a priority for consoles. The games that aren’t (and clearly are CPU-bound) have had issues on PC as well and are not without fault.

Also, it forces devs to optimize and parallelize instead of single thread bruteforcing. PC gamers should be greatful.

If you always want 120 fps then console gaming is not for you.

 

[Rickyiez]

I don’t recall the last time this happened. I’m not even sure the 8800 GTX was 100% faster than its predecessor.

If 100% faster means twice as fast then not long ago we have 3080 with almost 2x faster than 2080 in RT heavy game like Control.

 

[Xdrive05]

For sure the generations of RT cores matters a lot. 3060 12GB vs 4060ti 16GB is night and day (over double the FPS) in RT-heavy titles like Portal RTX and Cyberpunk path tracing, even though the 4060ti is only about a tier and half up from the 3060 in raster. I’m sure the 50 series will continue that. Can’t speak to AMD but the same is probably true for them.

 

[Wolzard]

Nvidia was ready for ray tracing the consoles were not.

They're not there yet. You need a $2000 GPU, upscaling and frame generation to be able to run a game in path tracing. I insist again that we are in a period of technology transition, it is not difficult to understand.

 

[hinch7]

Can you describe how "caught up" AMD looks like. Apparently being within 10-15% on average (7900XTX vs 4080) it is not.

Generally RNDA thus far (apart from perhaps custom silicon from Sony) offereings have been quite lackluster when it comes to RT. And assuming FSR 4 builds upon PSSR with ML upscaling, we should see AMD getting closer to Nvidia's performance in both image quality and RT.

No idea on performance numbers but its not hard to guess how each should go considering we have leaked specs and rumored estimations on both. Outside of new tech Nvidia has in store for us with DLSS 4. With neural rendering being recently leaked.

 

[SolidQ]

Neural rendering (texture upscaling)?

AMD already have it before NVIDIA, but NV can marketing this as new for cave people

 

[mckmas8808]

main issue

I think yall forget what a console is supposed to be. The PC gaming crazies have seriously lost their ever-lasting minds on GAF.

 

[hinch7]

AMD already have it before NVIDIA, but NV can marketing this as new for cave people

Not understanding the defensive stance. Whats important is implementation. Nvidia have worked on this for years and wil have something available in the upcoming months not 1+ years away. It took AMD well over a year to implement frame gen and years to come up (and still come short) with FSR 2 and 3 (against DLSS). Do you really think AMD will have something remotely close to that come launch? Honest question, no glazing.

If we can get better compressed textures quality without ridiculous amounts of memory thats a big win.

 

[SpokkX]

Zero sense. The consoles the previous gen were also based on AMD. It's called having a budget and power draw constraint. Do you think a NVIDIA could design a exponentially greater GPU/CPU combo given the budget of a 500 dollar box? If you want top of the line graphics, get a PC $3000+ PC.

Yes

Nvidia would have done WAY better for the same price. They are generations ahead of AMD gpus

 

[winjer]

Yes

Nvidia would have done WAY better for the same price. They are generations ahead of AMD gpus

Nvidia could have done better in RT. But not for the same price.
Nvidia is notorious for being difficult to work with, and that is why MS and Sony only made one console with them.

 

[twilo99]

We’ll probably end up with something like this

 

[Wolzard]

According to Hoang Anh Phu, a reliable AMD leaker, AMD might unveil FSR 4 technology, and more importantly, it is expected to launch alongside the Radeon RX 9070 XT. In a cryptic, emoji-filled message on X, Hoang suggests that all three products, including the Ryzen 9 9000X3D, are set to debut together. The leaker had already hinted that the Ryzen 9 9000X3D would be announced by the end of January.

AMD Radeon RX 9070 XT tipped to launch alongside FSR4 and Ryzen 9000X3D in late January - VideoCardz.com

AMD has new GPUs and new FSR Rumor has it, it will launch in late January alongside Ryzen 9000X3D. It is expected that CES 2025 will be one of the most exciting events for AMD fans in recent years. Not only will the company announce new Radeon GPUs, but it will also reveal Ryzen CPUs […]

videocardz.com

 

[Sanepar]

They're not there yet. You need a $2000 GPU, upscaling and frame generation to be able to run a game in path tracing. I insist again that we are in a period of technology transition, it is not difficult to understand.

Tbh the only games with noticeable better visuals with rt on is cp2077, witcher 3 and alan wake 2. Beside that is a waste to tank perf.

 

[Sanepar]

We’ll probably end up with something like this

5070 ti will beat 4080 by 5-10%

 

[Sanepar]

2% more than 4070 ti for $500 would be a great deal for midrange(80% of gpu market).

 

[FireFly]

They're not there yet. You need a $2000 GPU, upscaling and frame generation to be able to run a game in path tracing. I insist again that we are in a period of technology transition, it is not difficult to understand.

Alex at DF found that a 4070 was enough to run the game at 1440p 60 FPS with DLSS Quality and sun shadows enabled. That's still going to look quite a bit better than the console versions, since the inconsistent shadows are the main issue.

 

[sendit]

Yes

Nvidia would have done WAY better for the same price. They are generations ahead of AMD gpus

You're delusional. A GPU can't run on its own. Do you think Sony or Microsoft would have gone with NVidia if they could offer a SOC that was better than what AMD could offer at the same price?

 

[Sanepar]

Yes

Nvidia would have done WAY better for the same price. They are generations ahead of AMD gpus

They are not generations ahead. Look to 7900 xtx in raster beats 4080. Yes dlss is better and rt too. But besides xx80 or xx90 rt is just a waste. In some games even xx80 perform bad. 4090 represents 1% of the gpu market.

 

[Zathalus]

Tbh the only games with noticeable better visuals with rt on is cp2077, witcher 3 and alan wake 2. Beside that is a waste to tank perf.

Plenty more RT games than just those have visuals worth it. Black Myth and Indiana just came out this year for example.

 

[hinch7]

https://wccftech.com/amd-radeon-rx-9070-xt-gpu-benchmarked-time-spy-better-performance-rx-7900-gre/

Timespy score leak

Roughly on par with a 9700 GRE plus a few percent

 

[Sanepar]

Plenty more RT games than just those have visuals worth it. Black Myth and Indiana just came out this year for example.

I can't see any diff in indy. Black myth didn't play yet. But read here the extra rt doesn't worth it.

 

[SolidQ]

Roughly on par with a 9700 GRE plus a few percent

Driver not final, and 7900XT/XTX first results also was lower, anyway we need game bench, not useless 3dmark

 

[Zathalus]

I can't see any diff in indy. Black myth didn't play yet. But read here the extra rt doesn't worth it.

Well agree to disagree, the difference in both games are quite obvious and transformative to some scenes.

 

[hinch7]

Driver not final, and 7900XT/XTX first results also was lower, anyway we need game bench, not useless 3dmark

Its a predicable result. The IPC in RDNA 4 has barely budged if at all - looking at games running on the PS5 Pro. And CU count vs the 7800XT not increased a whole lot (3840 vs 4096) and less than 7%. With the differientior being the advanced/mature process and clocks. Plus ML+RT improvements.

The fact they named it a 70 class card speaks for itself. The biggest factor is how AMD will price these. At under $500, and lets say $450 for a 4070 Super (+16GB) I'd say that'll be great. But knowing AMD they'll go $550 and just slot it under the Nvidia's equivelant.

 

[Wolzard]

3DMark Port Royal

Note: This benchmark has ray tracing.

9070 XT: above the 4070 Ti, below the 4070 Ti Super.

 

[SolidQ]

3DMark Port Royal

irrelevant, not real gaming scenario.

 

[Bojji]

6 years, with 4th gen of cards around the corner is not that new in my humble opinion.


Your comment was made in the context of about 40 (!!!) games reviewed.
How many of those are AMD sponsored pretty please?

Why it matters: for average RT figures to NOT matter (your argument) there should be a lot of AMD sponsored games in the list.

Most games have light RT, it doesn't matter if they are AMD sponsored or console quality RT. Average of many games will show you better AMD performance than in reality, when light RT is present most of performance is still based on raster. But few games with heavy RT shows results totally different.

3DMark Port Royal

Note: This benchmark has ray tracing.

9070 XT: above the 4070 Ti, below the 4070 Ti Super.

PR was always relatively good for AMD:

 

[Buggy Loop]

Saw this in Reddit and chuckled..

 

[sendit]

Nvidia was ready for ray tracing the consoles were not.

Nah. At the time of PS5/Xbox X/S release ray tracing, brought a 3090 to its knees. I exclusively turned ray tracing off (outside of taking screenshots) until I replaced my 3090 with a 4090. Frame gen is almost always needed to get acceptable framerates.

 

[SolidQ]

Nvidia was ready for ray tracing the consoles were not.

Rtx 2060 is weak for Rt

 

[Panajev2001a]

The IPC in RDNA 4 has barely budged if at all - looking at games running on the PS5 Pro.

Not fair on either company as Pinot a lot of PS5 Pro games so far have actually properly targeted the new HW and it is not a pure RDNA4 part; it is a hybrid architecture with some RDNA4+ features, some custom features, and some RDNA2.x (extended) ones.
Specifically with RT it seemed clear from this talk that to get the full benefit from the RT enhancements they delivered beyond more CUs you needed to opt-in and change your code as a dev:

And CU count vs the 7800XT not increased a whole lot (3840 vs 4096) and less than 7%.

Reslly miniscule change in CUs to deliver that modest change in shader ALUs you quote. It is not totally fair on AMD as CU count is not the end all be all metric similar to FLOPS (Road to PS5 talk by Cerny).

 

[TheRedRiders]

Mark Cerny also claimed there would be several quantum leaps in ray-tracing in the coming years, maybe he’s seen the AMD roadmap for the next 5 or 6 years and knows what’s coming. This will look promising for the PS6.

 

[Kenpachii]

Mark Cerny also claimed there would be several quantum leaps in ray-tracing in the coming years, maybe he’s seen the AMD roadmap for the next 5 or 6 years and knows what’s coming. This will look promising for the PS6.

He for sure is the one that would know it because of the PS6, so will be interested to see what happens.

 

[Physiognomonics]

Not fair on either company as Pinot a lot of PS5 Pro games so far have actually properly targeted the new HW and it is not a pure RDNA4 part; it is a hybrid architecture with some RDNA4+ features, some custom features, and some RDNA2.x (extended) ones.
Specifically with RT it seemed clear from this talk that to get the full benefit from the RT enhancements they delivered beyond more CUs you needed to opt-in and change your code as a dev:


Reslly miniscule change in CUs to deliver that modest change in shader ALUs you quote. It is not totally fair on AMD as CU count is not the end all be all metric similar to FLOPS (Road to PS5 talk by Cerny).

Has anyone done benchmark to compare PS5 Pro vs Nvidia cards using that F1 game using comparable RT and DLSS features? Next year comparison against Spider-man 2 will give us a better idea still how RDNA4 RT performs.

 

[twilo99]

If this here is true the card shouldn’t cost more than $399

 

[winjer]

If this here is true the card shouldn’t cost more than $399

That put's it around the RT performance of a 7900XT or 4070 Super.
Not a great result.

 

[SweetTooth]

main issue

Disagree, we have more 60fps games than ever on consoles. Stable performance too.

 

[Draugoth]

​

According to rumours the highly expected AMD Next Gen RDNA 4 will be skipping the High-End parts and will only be releasing Mid-Range of their next generation RDNA 4 GPU architecture, the RX 9070 XT's benchmark data has recently been leaked and is performing around the same level as RX 7900 GRE on Time Spy Benchmark.

This result seems to be disappointing, because it looks like it won't even manage to compete against the likes of upcoming RTX 5070 or let alone won't even come close on beating AMD's previous RDNA 3 flagship such as the 7900 XTX.

​

 

[Corporal.Hicks]

They're not there yet. You need a $2000 GPU, upscaling and frame generation to be able to run a game in path tracing. I insist again that we are in a period of technology transition, it is not difficult to understand.

You are complaining that even high end GPU's need to use DLSS and FG to get smooth FPS with maxed out PATH TRACING in 4K, yet console gamers play at 30-60fps and 1440-1080p (performance modes). DLSS often look as good as native TAA if not better, and DLSS FG is basically a free fps boost. If you have such insanely high standards and you think that PT games are unplayable on PC because of these AI features, then I can say that any game on consoles that does not run at true 4K native and real 120fps (fps without FG) are not playable either.

I am playing on a 1440p monitor, and I get around 110-120fps in the most demadning PT games thanks to DLSS quality and FG. With standard RT I get nearly 200fps.

Path Tracing

Psycho RT

27ms input latency, I could play this game competitively with Psycho RT and still have an advantage over other players.

At 4K I have to use DLSS performance in order to use PT, but considering how good DLSS performance looks, it still offers excellent image quality (especially with reshade).

Path tracing 4K DLSS performance

57ms, still very responsive gameplay, especially on gamepad (for comparison 60fps games on the PS5 have around 80ms input latency)

Psycho RT

BMW is the most demading PT game currently available, yet it runs awesome in 4K DLSSP + FG with fullPT and very high settings. I have no complaints because DLSSP with reshade still looks great and the game is perfectly responsive (in this particular game nvidia FG has the lowest input latency possible because it activate nvidia reflex).

To sum it up, I have to use AI feauters to play with PT at smooth fps, but that's a hardly a comprimise for me given how well these AI features works, so I'm enjoying playing games with fullPT regardless of what you said. From my perspective, PC platform (at least high end GPUs) is ready for PT. Soon RTX50 series will launch and people will be able to run PT games at smooth fps at 4K even without FG if that's a big problem for some.

As for standard RT, some RT games are so well optimized I can run them at well over 120fps even at 4K native, but let's pretend that RT games are not playable on PC.

Character reflection in TV, maybe a small detail for some, but I noticed it and was impressed.

Metro exodus (standard edition, because EE has overdone RT lighting and washed out blacks) with RT GI, the graphics looks way better with RT and still runs at well over 80fps even at 4K native TAA.

raster

Ray Tracing

RT

 

[crazepharmacist]

Okay, so surely it will be priced insanely competitively then if the performance is so lackluster.

Right guys?